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Nose up to flat to nose down putt

seedlings

* Ace Member *
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Aug 29, 2020
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Calvin's putt is just a bit nose up out of his hand, flat at the top of the arc, nose down as it enters the basket. Simon's putt is nose up entire flight. Gannon's is nose down entire flight. Ricky's usually nose down entire flight, but sometimes has the same flight as Calvin.

What causes the disc to parallel the up-flat-down arc (Calvin)?
 
Calvin's putt is just a bit nose up out of his hand, flat at the top of the arc, nose down as it enters the basket. Simon's putt is nose up entire flight. Gannon's is nose down entire flight. Ricky's usually nose down entire flight, but sometimes has the same flight as Calvin.

What causes the disc to parallel the up-flat-down arc (Calvin)?
I've watched ricky putt in person, and I dont know what the camera does, but it doesn't look that way in person.

And I don't agree that simons is nose up the whole way. Then again, simon is also annoying enough of a person that he can just randomly change it with ease.
 
Calvin's putt is just a bit nose up out of his hand, flat at the top of the arc, nose down as it enters the basket. Simon's putt is nose up entire flight. Gannon's is nose down entire flight. Ricky's usually nose down entire flight, but sometimes has the same flight as Calvin.

What causes the disc to parallel the up-flat-down arc (Calvin)?
Do you have a good clip, or ideally slow motion, of Calvin doing this?
 
Do you have a good clip, or ideally slow motion, of Calvin doing this?
No. I just notice it sometimes watching him (and Rick). Here is a very mild example from footage this morning at LVC. It's like he launches it slightly nose-up from level, and then as it rides the nose goes further down.

 
I've watched ricky putt in person, and I dont know what the camera does, but it doesn't look that way in person.

And I don't agree that simons is nose up the whole way. Then again, simon is also annoying enough of a person that he can just randomly change it with ease.

It could be that some camera angles are fooling my eye. Probably just this simple. I'll try to pay attention and get a clip of an exaggerated example to discuss.

ETA Simon's nose-up:
 
Am I only imagining this?

A football can be thrown so that the spiral maintains one axis angle for the entire flight, or thrown so the spiral axis follows the flight arc. I think putting can be the same, but idk what's involved.
 
I'm not seeing it in the videos, but I'm also only looking on my phone.

I was thinking it sounds impossible for anything to affect nose angle so drastically in such a short time. The disc would have to be traveling sideways in order for precession to move the nose.

But this led me to an interesting question. How fast does something have to spin to be treated as a spinning object?

Asymmetric lift on a spinning disc causes turn and fade, but on a non-spinning disc would move the nose up and down. But what happens with only a tiny amount of spin? I've actually no idea.
 
I found this online (and similar info in other places) about a spinning top. My emphasis.

"The expression for precession angular velocity is valid only under the conditions where the spin angular velocity ω is much greater than the precession angular velocity ωP. When the top slows down, the top begins to wobble, an indication that more complicated types of motion are coming into play."

It's a pretty common thing in physics to say vague things like 'only when x is much bigger than y' without defining exactly what 'much bigger' might mean. It just means that none of the rules of one state or the other can be properly applied in the messy in-between bit, and there's no neat cut-off where it switches from one state to another.

So in short, who knows what happens to a lowish-spin push putt?! I suspect it's complicated. But i couldn't rule out that there would be actual changes in the nose as you suggest.
 
Here are some tech disc stats on a few different putting styles / cues



I think most people don't realize just how nose down many putts are. A true nose up putt looks like the disc's trajectory is not aligned with the arm's plane (due to pronation causing the wrist's plane to be on steeper plane than the arm plane).

The putts that loft up, then seem to hover a little, then dive down, I think, are usually high launch angle combined with a lot of nose down, enough to where the launch angle and nose angles nearly cancel each other out. So the disc is being launched up in the direction of the top flight plate, but the nose close to parallel to the ground or nose tilted down towards the ground, that way when the apex is reached, it doesn't stall.

Notice how in the vid examples as the launch angle increases for a spush putt the nose angle decreases to balance out the increased launch angle. It's possible to also have lower nose angle than launch angle with a spush style to make it dive down sooner. Sometimes I do this for soft bids when there are obstacles behind the basket and I need it to dive down quicker if it misses which is sometimes easier to do than a safe stalling bid.

A lot of the time when a putt is called nose up it's probably actually slightly nose down or nose neutral but with a big enough gap between the nose and launch angle that it still can float up and stall (shown in video). This is what most of Simon's putts are I believe, unless he's doing a low ceiling putt where a even going to a knee doesn't open up a high launch angle path out of the low ceiling (high launch angle but starting from close to the ground so there's time for it to get out of the ceiling before it goes too high).
 
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A lot of the time when a putt is called nose up it's probably actually slightly nose down or nose neutral but with a big enough gap between the nose and launch angle that it still can float up and stall (shown in video). This is what most of Simon's putts are I believe, unless he's doing a low ceiling putt where a even going to a knee doesn't open up a high launch angle path out of the low ceiling (high launch angle but starting from close to the ground so there's time for it to get out of the ceiling before it goes too high).

I would definitely agree that a lot of people miss read nose up putts for actual nose neutral putts.

Though, I'd also argue that Simon doesn't often putt nose up.

And I know from experience playing with Ricky, the putt you see on camera is not what it looks like in real life. We had a good joke about it too.

If you're actually putting pretty nose up, you're going to have a lot of serious putting issues with disc rises, or disc stalls and hyzer outs. It's not like throwing where its going to power to apex then stall. Nose up is going to be stalling the whole time at that low of speed giving you a really really inconsistent putt.

I have a lot of people criticize my putt for being nose down and think that you need to putt nose up, because they see the pro's putting nose up. "you missed cause it was nose down."
Like. do you NOT watch me putt? 90% of my putts are nose down, on purpose.
Putting is a lot easier when you know what the disc will do and all you gotta do is get it on line and let it glide in. And a disc isn't going to "glide in" when its nose up.

Downhill putts are the most fun, cause its a case of essentially figuring out the glide slope to put your disc on and putting the nose angle right.


If we are realistically saying any level of nose up putting at all, were looking at 1 or 2 degree's.
Something that would kill a winged shaped driver, but putters generally do no issues with, which is why they usually fly so good for people who throw nose up like me.
 
I would definitely agree that a lot of people miss read nose up putts for actual nose neutral putts.

Though, I'd also argue that Simon doesn't often putt nose up.

And I know from experience playing with Ricky, the putt you see on camera is not what it looks like in real life. We had a good joke about it too.

If you're actually putting pretty nose up, you're going to have a lot of serious putting issues with disc rises, or disc stalls and hyzer outs. It's not like throwing where its going to power to apex then stall. Nose up is going to be stalling the whole time at that low of speed giving you a really really inconsistent putt.

I have a lot of people criticize my putt for being nose down and think that you need to putt nose up, because they see the pro's putting nose up. "you missed cause it was nose down."
Like. do you NOT watch me putt? 90% of my putts are nose down, on purpose.
Putting is a lot easier when you know what the disc will do and all you gotta do is get it on line and let it glide in. And a disc isn't going to "glide in" when its nose up.

Downhill putts are the most fun, cause its a case of essentially figuring out the glide slope to put your disc on and putting the nose angle right.


If we are realistically saying any level of nose up putting at all, were looking at 1 or 2 degree's.
Something that would kill a winged shaped driver, but putters generally do no issues with, which is why they usually fly so good for people who throw nose up like me.
Yeah, a lot of it too is camera confusion, any time the camera has a view of under the flight plate it always appears more nose up than it is.
 
Here's a follow up video (plus some clickbait) showing an actual example with a putter and the same nose neutral to slightly nose down stroke compared to the nose up stroke from the tech disc video

 
To my original question, what I'm probably seeing is a
1) neutral to slighty nose-down release
2) on an upward angle
3) that gradually goes more nose-down through the flight
4) with camera-angle exaggeration
 
To my original question, what I'm probably seeing is a
1) neutral to slighty nose-down release
2) on an upward angle
3) that gradually goes more nose-down through the flight
4) with camera-angle exaggeration
And spush style with low backswing naturally produce significant nose down unless really trying to make it nose up.

But people, including Ricky, don't feel and think they are making it nose down, because you don't have to try to make it happen and it doesn't fly like people expect a nose down putt to fly (diving down quickly). He says in an interview "It looks like it's going nose down, but it's all the angle and leverage with my fingers..."

This is on a really long putt too, where you'd think nose down would be bad for distance but the nose down just balances out a higher launch angle with this style to get more distance usually.

1717083930463.png
At the apex, it looks flat and NOT nose down, because it's in a new phase of flight where it's no longer traveling along the launch angle and is now gliding down from the apex. Had he released it nose neutral, at this point in the flight it would appear a bit nose up and start to stall / hyzer out early instead of having a penetrating glide:
1717084085409.png

A stroke like this for me is like above 30 deg launch angle with a negative nose angle in the high twenties (usually stays close to the launch angle) and that's all without trying to make it nose down. So, since this is that much nose down, when changing to a spin style with a more linear upwards spin putt stroke where you launch it more in the direction of the rim, it makes sense that it doesn't suddenly go from -25 nose to +10 nose, but instead the nose angle gets close to 0 or slightly nose down, whereas this stroke has more of a curving upwards arm motion that is steeper than where the rim is angled.
 
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Your observations about the nose angle of putts have made me much more comfortable with my putting strokes as I used to loathe their nose angle. So thanks for that.
 

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