Hey, you're the one who made the blanket statement that all sanctioned events should offer all divisions.
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Older Players
- Thread starter IVER
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Hey, you're the one who made the blanket statement that all sanctioned events should offer all divisions.
Anyway, nobody's forcing anyone to compete against people 30 years younger. Nobody's forcing anyone to play at all; it's a voluntary activity.
As I mentioned, next year I'll be a Senior Grandmaster. I'll be eligible to compete in Advanced, Masters, Senior Grandmasters, Intermediate, and Recreational, plus pro divisions---or 10 divisions to choose from. If my decline persists, I'll make it 11. I prefer the age-protected divisions, for social reasons, but I can certainly compete against much younger players where my rating falls. I won't throw as far, but the kids won't throw as accurately. If the Senior Grandmasters isn't offered, all I can say is I don't have the opportunity to play in the division that would be my first choice, in that particular event.
As I mentioned, next year I'll be a Senior Grandmaster. I'll be eligible to compete in Advanced, Masters, Senior Grandmasters, Intermediate, and Recreational, plus pro divisions---or 10 divisions to choose from. If my decline persists, I'll make it 11. I prefer the age-protected divisions, for social reasons, but I can certainly compete against much younger players where my rating falls. I won't throw as far, but the kids won't throw as accurately. If the Senior Grandmasters isn't offered, all I can say is I don't have the opportunity to play in the division that would be my first choice, in that particular event.
corin_brown
Eagle Member
Congrats. Unless, of course, you expect to compete in the senior grandmaster division. In that case, then, bummer.
The $5 trophy idea is a trope that came from a similar thread I saw on FB the other night. Over there, the OP was expressing a similar lament to the lament expressed by the OP on this thread. And then, predictably, a bunch of FB litigators chimed in with their tedious "suck it ups" and "if you don't like it, start your own Disc Golf Associations" etc.
A common refrain on the FB thread was that the reason TDs forced certain players who wished to participate in their tournament into other divisions was due to the extra cost of paying out more divisions than they wanted - including a trophy.
Now, if the winner of every division in every PDGA sanctioned event won the disc golf equivalent of the Lombardi Trophy - a massive 10lb hunk of Sterling Silver, worth thousands of dollars - I might have some sympathy for the TD not wishing to splash out the cash to forge such a trophy for a division with only two or three players in it.
But, as we all know, disc golf trophies are not similar to the Lombardi. In fact, not even half of the PDGA events I've played in (100+) have offered a trophy to the winners. And of the trophies I have seen, none could have cost more than $10. In fact, for one C-Tier that I won, I received a small block of "beveled" pine with the words lightly scored into one of the sides. I loved it. I loved it not because it was valuable, but because it was the perfect symbol of #discgolfrich I could think of. I kept imagining our beloved TD prepping for the tournament, in the trophy store being shown the cheapest trophy the store had to offer and him saying, "nah, that one's too expensive, I need something that's gonna run me around $2. What else you got?"
So for this thread, I picked the "$5 trophy" idea as a rough guess of the average cost of the trophies I've seen at all PDGA events, to try to illustrate the levels of money we're talking about when TDs use the extra-cost excuse when consolidating marginalized players into other, more peopled, divisions.
Apologies for the confusion.
Personally, like many others, I don't need a trophy and I don't need any swag and I don't need any players pack and I don't need any payout. For the price of my PDGA tournament registration, I just want a smoothly run tournament, a rating and to compete in whichever division I choose to compete in, with the same restrictions as anyone else. What's wrong with that?
Thanks. As with many things, our personal and regional experiences differ, and we bring those experiences into these forums.
I'd say 90% of the events around here do not offer trophies.....but the handful that do, offer really nice, customized ones for each division. Whether they cost the TD or club $20 or a local volunteer's time creating them, I don't think they'd want to commit to preparing one for every possible division, only to throw away two-thirds of them if those divisions don't form. There are more than 30 potential divisions, and, for example, 30 x $20 = $600, which is no longer insignificant money.
Most events around here offer any division for which there are players---some as a blanket statement beforehand, some will accommodate players if they request. Many waive the 4-player minimum and will even allow someone to be a 1-person division, if that's what he or she wants (I have no idea why players want this, but some do).
In fact, the upcoming local C-tier has 11 amateur senior grandmasters registered. I won't have problems finding some events to play that division, if I wish, though I'll often choose another, as I'd rather play in a larger division.
Of the tournaments around here that don't offer all divisions, it's usually for good reasons.
My other experience is as a longtime TD, so I'm a reflexive TD-sympathizer. I'm fine with TDs structuring their events as they see fit, within the rules, and players choosing to play, or not. I've TD'd events offering all divisions, and allowing 1-man divisions, and events that restricted them, for appropriate reasons. None of which had to do with trophies.
I'd say 90% of the events around here do not offer trophies.....but the handful that do, offer really nice, customized ones for each division. Whether they cost the TD or club $20 or a local volunteer's time creating them, I don't think they'd want to commit to preparing one for every possible division, only to throw away two-thirds of them if those divisions don't form. There are more than 30 potential divisions, and, for example, 30 x $20 = $600, which is no longer insignificant money.
Most events around here offer any division for which there are players---some as a blanket statement beforehand, some will accommodate players if they request. Many waive the 4-player minimum and will even allow someone to be a 1-person division, if that's what he or she wants (I have no idea why players want this, but some do).
In fact, the upcoming local C-tier has 11 amateur senior grandmasters registered. I won't have problems finding some events to play that division, if I wish, though I'll often choose another, as I'd rather play in a larger division.
Of the tournaments around here that don't offer all divisions, it's usually for good reasons.
My other experience is as a longtime TD, so I'm a reflexive TD-sympathizer. I'm fine with TDs structuring their events as they see fit, within the rules, and players choosing to play, or not. I've TD'd events offering all divisions, and allowing 1-man divisions, and events that restricted them, for appropriate reasons. None of which had to do with trophies.
And then there are things that we completely agree on.....with the exception of the "any division I choose" part. There's nothing wrong with wanting it, of course.
But for myself, by next year's attainment of SGM, I'll be able to compete (in the sense of having a reasonable chance to win) in 3 divisions and compete (in the sense of playing, even if I'll finish near the bottom) in 10. I'd prefer the former and will accept the latter, if that's what's available.
Otherwise, I'll choose different events, just as I choose or dismiss events for other reasons.
Or run one, if it matters that much to me, and no one else will do it. This is how my area has ended up, at various times, with sanctioned match play tournaments, juniors tournaments, and team play tournaments---they seemed like a good idea, no one else was doing it, so my brother and I did. It's crossed my mind to run a Masters+ event one day (all age-protected division).
Isn't the idea of playing tournaments to compete? Can you really call it competition if you're the only player in your division? As a TD, I want to limit the number of divisions offered in order to best ensure that every player who signs up is in an actual competition with other players. I would expect that players feel the same way. By that token, I understand not wanting to be "stuck" in a division in which you are overmatched against the field, but at the same time, does getting a division to yourself give any satisfaction?
To put it another way, what benefit is derived for the player if a division is held because one player is asking for it and quite possibly is the only one within 200 miles of the tournament who is eligible and desiring to play the division? The player would probably be charged the same entry and receive the same player pack as the closest equivalent division already being offered (say MG1 entry fee for an ML1 player). So no savings or gains there. Ratings earned would be the same. There's more points to be earned in an offered division, even in last place , so no gain there. Grouping-wise, it's a crapshoot because a division of one is likely to get tacked into whatever odd-numbered group is available...it could be Mr. Legend has to play with MA1 players or FA2 or MJ2, who knows. So the social aspect of not wanting to play with youngsters is possibly lost.
The only thing I can see it coming down to is the trophy and whatever prizes there might be. Which goes back to the question of whether that is really satisfying for a player seeking competition?
I think the way things are set up now, with TDs having the flexibility to do as they see fit within particular guidelines is perfectly fair. For divisions for which eligible players are scarce, I think the onus should be on those players to arrange to attend the same events and create competition for themselves.
To put it another way, what benefit is derived for the player if a division is held because one player is asking for it and quite possibly is the only one within 200 miles of the tournament who is eligible and desiring to play the division? The player would probably be charged the same entry and receive the same player pack as the closest equivalent division already being offered (say MG1 entry fee for an ML1 player). So no savings or gains there. Ratings earned would be the same. There's more points to be earned in an offered division, even in last place , so no gain there. Grouping-wise, it's a crapshoot because a division of one is likely to get tacked into whatever odd-numbered group is available...it could be Mr. Legend has to play with MA1 players or FA2 or MJ2, who knows. So the social aspect of not wanting to play with youngsters is possibly lost.
The only thing I can see it coming down to is the trophy and whatever prizes there might be. Which goes back to the question of whether that is really satisfying for a player seeking competition?
I think the way things are set up now, with TDs having the flexibility to do as they see fit within particular guidelines is perfectly fair. For divisions for which eligible players are scarce, I think the onus should be on those players to arrange to attend the same events and create competition for themselves.
I think the argument being made is not that single-player divisions should be provided, but that all divisions should be offered at the onset, and divisions closed only if not enough players register.
I agree that this is a good practice in most cases, but shouldn't be a one-size-fits-all mandate.
I agree that this is a good practice in most cases, but shouldn't be a one-size-fits-all mandate.
Okay, I can see that. From the TD's perspective, it's far simpler to offer the most common divisions (based on historical data) and add as necessary (when there's four or more) than to offer everything and most likely have to consolidate small divisions after the fact.
corin_brown
Eagle Member
Of course no one is forced to do anything in life. Sorry for implying otherwise. However, in many PDGA events, TD's force certain players into certain divisions they would prefer not to be in, if those certain players wish to participate.
So is being a TD.
corin_brown
Eagle Member
Sorry for not qualifying my statement "... any division I choose" with a "... that I qualify to play in." I guess I just assumed no one would infer that I meant that a 1050-rated pro should be allowed to register for MA3 if they chose to. That would be absurd.
No apology necessary, I didn't read it that way. Or intend that in my response.
What I meant, as I said elsewhere, my age will qualify me for Am Senior Grandmasters. That will be my first choice, most of the time, assuming there are enough players in it to make a reasonable division (8 or 10, to my taste). My rating qualifies me to play Rec, and I'd be fine there. Or I can play Grandmasters, against people a little younger than me, and be fine. If none of those are available, I have yet other choices.
So a TD limiting divisions available is only limiting me for playing any division I choose (with the understanding that it's one I qualify for). In other words, not affording me to the opportunity to play in the division that would be my first choice.
I'm fine with that.
I can choose one of the other divisions for which I'm eligible, or choose some other event, if they don't suit me.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
The one single thing the PDGA does best is allowing TD's the flexibility to run their events as they see fit for the most part. There are going to be literally thousands of events over the course of the year. If one does not suit your purposes there are plenty more out there. If you would like to see change in your local events the place to effect that change is locally.
da Crippler
Eagle Member
Seniors and Legends combined make up less than 3% of disc golfers, so more often than not we are forced to play in younger divisions. When that happens, a lot of us become pot feeders with no chance of finishing "in the money", especially after spending $ on gas, food, motels, registration fees etc. Most of the time the experience of playing in an enjoyable tourney with my peers along with a decent players pack is enough for me. It is, however, discouraging when you go into a tourney realizing you have no chance of winning anything. And it has nothing to do with winning prizes, but having personal pride in your ability to be competitive in a sport at an advanced age.
If the PDGA and all the other DG organizations and manufacturers were really serious about growing the sport, they would be in the schools and senior centers giving demonstrations, running programs and clinics, running kids and senior days at local courses, organizing group outings, and trying to be as inclusive as possible. I see a little bit of that happening, but we need a lot more people to step up.
If the PDGA and all the other DG organizations and manufacturers were really serious about growing the sport, they would be in the schools and senior centers giving demonstrations, running programs and clinics, running kids and senior days at local courses, organizing group outings, and trying to be as inclusive as possible. I see a little bit of that happening, but we need a lot more people to step up.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
The plight of senior players will lessen with the general aging of the player base. Disc golf is still a very young sport. I have been running events in my area for 20 years and have been able to watch as divisions we had almost no players for at one point have grown. There were almost as many grandmasters at my event yesterday as open players- 10 years ago there were a handful of gm players in Virginia. Demand for SGM has increased to the point that it is now offered in pretty much all of the larger events. This trend is not going to stop but it is an incremental thing. Today's older players have considerably more options than were available in the past. (as do the other supposedly "marginalized" groups- Juniors and Ladies) I am not trying to say that this solves all of the issues for older players TODAY, just offering some perspective for those of you who have not been involved in disc golf for a long time.
If we old folks don't have a division, and care about finishing "in the money", we can play in ratings-based divisions (Intermediate, Rec, Novice). The competitors may be younger, but not necessarily better.
Around here, I'm about 5 years ahead of this wave. Each time I qualify for a new age-protected division, there aren't many competitors, but by the time I'm halfway through it, the wave has joined me and the divisions regularly populate.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Years ago we used to joke that the PDGA added a division for every 5th birthday for Steady Ed.
That's funny.
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You don't have to be old to feel that way. Why should being bad because you are old be treated any different than being bad because you are just bad?
josephreese
Bogey Member
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Are you suggesting that we should not have protected divisions?
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