Over a thousand hours in the field and all I got was this stupid form.

[pjsb1]

Ok I've been working on my form a lot over the past few years and this year especially. I see a lot of people use this forum to keep track of their progress over the years so I thought for my first post I'd show my entire progression from 2017 to now including the advice I was given.

If you just want to see my most recent form and give advice on that it is the slow motion form at the bottom.

Here's my first form check that I posted to the disc golf subreddit in 2017:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqs8qV8RBAY

And the advice I was given by a certain seabass22 on reddit:
"You are spinning out your hips before your weight shifts forward, need to lead more with your butt/weight into the plant, then swing. In the Hershyzer Drill you would be kicking the wall way before your butt hits it. The Door Frame Drill should put you in the same similar position leading with your weight more moving forward while pulling your shoulder and arm/disc further back into the plant."

Now in 2018 almost a year later I was throwing about 375 as my max but these two throws were my best, the one with the purple disc somehow went over 400 (which would take me another 2 years to accomplish) and the green one went 375.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ1J8xZqFKc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWUhBzS-7qk

And the advice I was given from Danny:
"I noticed two things. The first is footwork. You need to shift your weight over your toes so it's more natural for them to be in the correct orientation. Your left foot moves forwards sideways then turns sideways at the last second. And your front foot starts pointed towards the target then turns back at the last second. Make that intentional. Keep the left foot sideways and turn the front foot back. Don't take such a big step either. It's harder on your knees and means a less efficient rotation."

"The other thing I noticed was the grip lock. The disc comes out all kinds of funky. It's like wobbling and changes angles at the last second too. Looks like it's ripping off the pressure of your fingers into your palm rather than vertical pressure between your fingers and your thumb. Pinch the disc and you'll get a pivot out of your hand rather than a clumsy wobble."

(I said "I think the reason it went so far was because I delayed my hit longer than normal, which also caused it to go right.")

"Yeah I noticed you fully hit that one. You crushed it. The last thing is kind of a common issue even among the top throwers but it's something that can add consistency for everyone. That's angle integrity. Keep the disc on the angle you're throwing the whole time. So reach back on a hyzer, don't change the angle as you pull, and follow through on that hyzer angle."

I didn't make much progress from here for quite a while, I would stay at a 375 max until after I got this video lesson from Will Schusterick, and afterward I could throw 390 max.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwSACo1gqpo&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=WillSchusterick

I was able to fix opening my hips early (which was advice seabass had given me 2 years ago...) and fixed my wrist being open as I reached back, but still couldn't get my lower body into the throw or fix the rest of the advice he gave.

In June of 2020 I took a live video lesson with Stokely wherein he basically told me to "stand up straight." And advice as simple as that got me to my current max distance throw of 411" flat in a field. But it still didn't help me figure out how to generate power from the lower body.

I am well aware that I haven't fixed everything I've been given advice on in the past. I just have so many different things I've tried to fix that many times I'll fix something and it won't really change my throw much and then when I move on to fix something else the last thing I fixed reverts. I've also tried to do some things I've been told I do wrong and just cannot figure out how to do them correctly. Anyway, enough excuses, here are some recent videos of me throwing

396' TL3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDyqrxqHr7I&feature=youtu.be

Trying to figure out how to get lower body power in my throw (Slow motion)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4ELBDZm_w1

My fastest recorded speedgun throw, form looks pretty bad imo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyq7rDL6zV0

And as a bonus, my fastest recorded forehand:
https://youtu.be/32CXvXatNrc

Alright, there's the wall of text. That's everything, I'm willing to try any advice you can throw at me. I've already put more than 1000 hours into form work, nothing wrong with another 1000.

P.S. Let me know if I should change anything in the post or remove any of the videos for whatever reason, this is my first post on the forum.

 

[sidewinder22]

Only 9000 more to go to master! The TL looked the best. The lower body slo mo was no bueno.

You are limiting yourself by only recording from the side. You can see some of the issue from the side like Will was talking about not loading the back leg properly(I don't 100% agree with how he suggests to fix it), and I think your rear foot/leg is pointed too far backwards. Will is extremely flexible and able to pull off the rear foot backward and load back, most people can't and need to be 45 degrees closer to perpendicular to load back and make a more balanced lateral move instead of backward falling move.

What you can't see from that side angle is "hip depth" which is critical to loading the back leg and I'm pretty sure that's the missing ingredient. Your rear hip is going too far forward/targetward from the rear knee, instead of moving deeper diagonally forward. Your rear leg also should kick more behind the front leg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

The Hips thread is your friend. You should feel different loading in Buttwipe and Inside Swing Drills getting your hips/butt more seated behind your ankles. Should be doing this in Door Frame Drills dropping/squatting the hip back(not the knee dropping) going into the plant.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543



FH your front knee collapses or leaks past your ankle, need to more suddenly brace up on front leg and stop your forward momentum to go into quicker rotation behind the ankle. Need to stick your front leg into the ground more suddenly and aggressively like a shifty running back changing directions. You plant your front leg very slow and soft like jello.

 

[pjsb1]

I thought you might say that about the TL3 throw and the slow mo throw actually. The slow mo throw was very much an experiment. I just included it because that's what I did today. As for my rear foot being pointed far backwards, that is also something I was experimented with, I normally try to specifically point it more perpendicular to the target. As you can see, I experiment a lot, trying to figure out if some strange new thing might help make something click. Whenever I have a tournament coming up I stop experimenting and go back to my normal throw/whatever makes me throw farthest.

I also just knew for certain you'd post the hershyzer wall drill again. I know that's what I do wrong and that's always what I've done wrong. I'll look into the hips thread, might help show me something I haven't tried before or thought of before.

As for the FH, that's very good news to hear as that's actually what I was working on today. I started taking very short one steps with my forehand and abruptly throwing, it felt pretty good and now I can understand more what I was trying to accomplish by doing that.

I'll probably give an update tomorrow after looking through everything and trying some stuff. I'll make sure to record from behind. I also want to say I'm very grateful it seems you went through my whole post and watched all of the lesson with Will, thanks!

 

[DiscFifty]

2 things imop fwiw..(I'm no form guru...)

1) Throwing a TL3 395+ is nice. Another disc might go 50-100ft further, no joke. Disc selection is huge for max d.

2) You're "swooping" a bit. Your hand through your throw is staring high, comes across lower, and releases a tad going up again. I'm guessing your throws tend to either do an air bounce once in a while or take off like airplane going higher and higher instead of a more flat level throw. You can try to correct this by starting your hand lower in your reach back. Check out this vid from Ezra, mainly the 2nd tip in the video. "Swoop" Fixing this can have a dramatic effect on distance btw.

 

[pjsb1]

2 things imop fwiw..(I'm no form guru...)

1) Throwing a TL3 395+ is nice. Another disc might go 50-100ft further, no joke. Disc selection is huge for max d.

2) You're "swooping" a bit. Your hand through your throw is staring high, comes across lower, and releases a tad going up again. I'm guessing your throws tend to either do an air bounce once in a while or take off like airplane going higher and higher instead of a more flat level throw. You can try to correct this by starting your hand lower in your reach back. Check out this vid from Ezra, mainly the 2nd tip in the video. "Swoop" Fixing this can have a dramatic effect on distance btw.

Yeah, the TL3 at 396 was a surprise for sure. My farthest though was a D3 at 411' although I haven't tried to break the record for a while so I might be able to get one 420' nowadays.

As for the swooping, yeah that's something that happens when I'm focusing on other parts of my form, I do a bit of a swooping motion. It's funny though, most of the time what happens when I accidentally reach back high is that I just throw it straight into the ground. A lot of people always talk about a nose up problem but I have a nose down problem that stems from reaching back too high and then instead of a swoop I just bring it straight across angled down from high to low. Don't worry, this (swooping) isn't something that happens all the time in my throws and if it becomes too regular I can fix it :thmbup:

Thanks for looking out!

 

[pjsb1]

Alright here's 2 standstills and one run-up from today after watching some of the hip drills and performing them. Clearly, I'm still not doing things correctly in an actual throw but maybe with this angle we'll have a better idea of what we're working with.

https://youtu.be/Rimyc8CFzug



And forehand update, it's great now. Legitimately amazing compared to what I've been doing. God, forehand is so easy to fix, I just never bother fixing it lol.

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Hershyzer starting position. Your rear foot is pigeon toed or too perpendicular. Need to turn your rear foot further back counter clockwise to start with your shoulders closed and butt more facing target.

2. Rear foot drive. You are going into dorsiflexion with your rear toes in the air and heel on ground, instead of plantar flexion/ankle extension/eversion driving the heel from the toes/instep.

3. Keep rear arm in, palm facing anterior body, don't spill the beverage! Stop giving out palm out high fives to imaginary people! You will have to maintain better balance.

 

[pjsb1]

1. Hershyzer starting position. Your rear foot is pigeon toed or too perpendicular. Need to turn your rear foot further back counter clockwise to start with your shoulders closed and butt more facing target.

2. Rear foot drive. You are going into dorsiflexion with your rear toes in the air and heel on ground, instead of plantar flexion/ankle extension/eversion driving the heel from the toes/instep.

3. Keep rear arm in, palm facing anterior body, don't spill the beverage! Stop giving out palm out high fives to imaginary people! You will have to maintain better balance.

1. Ah, this is something I was doing when I was practicing the drills but clearly I lost it while practicing with a disc in my hand, thank you for pointing this out.

2. I hope I am understanding this, I think you're basically saying "Keep your toes on the ground and push into/toward your heel from the toe, right now you're keeping your heel on the ground and pushing off that with your toes in the air instead."

3. This is something I had been fixing recently but when I went to try other things I went back to old habits. It makes me overturn my shoulders and screws up my balance as you say. I will make sure to change this, should be easy considering I've done it before.

These all seem relatively easy to fix and things that I have not always done, but perhaps when I fix them I stop doing something else correctly and that could be a problem (I feel like this could happen for point #2). I'm pretty sure I can fix these all for next time, hopefully tomorrow. Thanks for the observations!

 

[pjsb1]

I did about 6 hours of course maintenance today, 4 and a half of which was shoveling mostly stone and some sand so my arm was dead. Here I am throwing about 50% trying to throw 70%. Not the best improvements over yesterday but I think it's technically a little bit better even if the throws are weaker. Pushing from the toes and keeping the toes on the ground messed with me a little bit at the beginning of the form session, these were the ones that didn't look totally awkward. I think in the second standstill I mess up my off-arm. Same format as the last video, two standstills from hershyzer and one 3-step.

https://youtu.be/H1Ua0WRlsg0

 

[RyanRehberg535]

I did about 6 hours of course maintenance today, 4 and a half of which was shoveling mostly stone and some sand so my arm was dead. Here I am throwing about 50% trying to throw 70%. Not the best improvements over yesterday but I think it's technically a little bit better even if the throws are weaker. Pushing from the toes and keeping the toes on the ground messed with me a little bit at the beginning of the form session, these were the ones that didn't look totally awkward. I think in the second standstill I mess up my off-arm. Same format as the last video, two standstills from hershyzer and one 3-step.

https://youtu.be/H1Ua0WRlsg0

My boxing coach used to wear out our arms before we did mitts or the heavy bag. We usually punched better because our arms were tired which made us use our legs and core more I wonder if doing the same could help with disc golf. Although I usually throw like a limp noodle after I've worked out :doh:

 

[sidewinder22]

Need to turn your feet/hips further back in the setup. Your right leg is having to swing out and around your left leg, instead of swinging straight thru inside unimpeded by the left leg.

Swing or kick back front leg, like a pitcher windup on rear leg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=23s

 

[pjsb1]

Alright, I can do that. I have plenty of videos of me doing it that way instead of the lazier way that I'm doing in the past few videos so I know I can fix that. I'll try to make sure I keep the integrity of the throw and everything I've tried to fix so far while doing the leg swing.

 

[pjsb1]

Alright, today I feel like I made some progress without making much progress if that makes sense. The first throw in this video I did several things poorly but I felt a different sort of weight shift. It felt like before this throw I had been moving my weight forward over my toes and then in this throw, it was more like my weight was moving forward balanced between my back and front legs/feet. I'm not sure if I'm on the right track here or if I should be focusing on making sure my off-arm and back foot are perfect before I focus on this different weight shift I'm feeling.

Also, I didn't feel like I was swinging my front leg back perfectly either, but I definitely started my practice session focusing on that.

https://youtu.be/gYjMjsSlYYU


Also, I measured the speed of my forehand today, took a few tries but I got to 60 mph, 3 mph faster than my previous best. I still can't believe it was something so simple that helped so much. Thanks again for that.

 

[sidewinder22]

IDK how you can practice in mud and not ideal. It does look a little better, but you need better balance and control of your left arm and instep of the rear foot on the ground to load and unload. Your rear foot is spinning out with the toes going up in the air.

 

[pjsb1]

In the other videos I had been doing I was practicing on the grass next to the mud, unfortunately if I didn't stop I'd have made that grassy section a mud pile as well. I might have to go out to a field at my local course next time, but the net makes things so convenient.

I had been working on the swim move a decent amount a little while before I started posting on this forum. I'm not too worried about my ability to do the swim move or use my off-arm better in general but I need to actually start doing it correctly and build the muscle memory so I'll be sure to work on it more.

As for my rear foot spinning out, that seems to be what I have the most trouble with. If I try to get my weight to go through my back hip before I plant (I don't know how else to describe the feeling) then I find trouble staying balanced and not letting my back foot lift up. If I try to keep my rear foot on the ground then it's hard for me to move my weight correctly(?) without totally falling over. That being said, I'm going to keep trying as best I can.

 

[sidewinder22]

Stop starting from the Hershyzer in the already back position. Start from the hit/address/finish position and work your way back. You should be able to step back from the hit into the Hershyzer/x-step backswing if you wanted to, but I would keep it short so the front foot only strides a couple inches like a batter and you can stay more easily balanced and leveraged inside the rear foot/leg.

There are several variations of the Swim Move, one is keeping your rear hand on your thigh instead of waving it around like you don't care about your balance or using it to counter-balance being out of balance condition.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134167

How to Step into your Throw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4lTAX3sfd4#t=9m

 

[pjsb1]

Today I focused on trying not to let my back foot spin out, my off-arm, where my weight is going as I move into the plant, and I fixed where I start my hershyzer throw from.

I would say that at times I did my off-arm very well and at times I did it poorly, especially those times where I was focused on other parts of the throw. The back foot thing I found hard to figure out when I did it correctly or not, which makes me think perhaps I never ended up doing it correctly. I think I'm getting a better idea of where my weight should be as I shift, though I can tell I don't do it very efficiently.

https://youtu.be/frFwZ0dciTA

My first throw I throw it off right of my line but otherwise, the throw felt good. 350'
My second throw was similar to the first throw but I was able to get it on line 350'
My third throw I tried a run-up and although I messed up quite a bit I think this was my most powerful run-up throw of the day. I messed up my back foot pretty bad and I shanked it off high and right, but I was still able to throw 380' with a very nose up throw.

 

[sidewinder22]

Rear arm looks a lot better. Rear foot looks better, but looks like you are trying to keep both your knees awkwardly bent and twisting them, I don't know if you are naturally pigeon toed? Even still you need to get your knees moving/extending back and forth more underneath you in alignment with the ankles and hips like walking or running or skating or a shifty running back changing directions.

Stand up in the setup and let your legs hang down as you shift/rock a little back and forth. Only one knee should bend at a time, not both knees bending together in setup / don't crouch, one bends while the other extends to rotate your pelvis while remaining tall.

If you had camera side view I think you would see your front knee landing too far behind your foot and hip more over the knee and your knee continually leaking forward with the swing instead of landing in more neutral joint alignment and more suddenly bracing up.

I think it will help to get you moving in different directions and reversing directions back and forth perpetually.

I think post 2 in E-walk with the walk back should really help with rotational force:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487

Skating laterally for horizontal force:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138273

Stepping down landing with the leg hanging from hip in neutral alignment for vertical force:

 

[pjsb1]

No, not naturally pigeon-toed, the knee thing probably just came from my misguided attempts at trying anything and everything to throw better. I think it should be fairly simple to fix, I don't think it's something that I've always done 100% of the time or anything like that. I love the elephant walk, I use it all the time when I'm too close to the rough to get a normal run-up or when I have a severe uphill lie. I've also done the Disc Golf Strong warmup that includes the jumping back and forth before as well. I'll focus on keeping the alignment of my legs and hips better during my next form-work session. Hopefully, it will be as easy as I think it could be.

 

[oldmandiscer]

Delay and/or slow down your turn back. I can see the disc moving rearward beyond your left foot. Then your shoulders end up coming through too early as the disc which is causing loss of power. Your right heel should be hitting the ground as the disc is extended on the reach back. Your disc is moving pretty far forward before you hit the right heel, which would be essentially where the power should start from.

I think the early turn back is also related to your head moving towards the target on the forward swing. If you delayed and or slowed down the turn your head would be in a more forward position already so you can then just rotate and fire. So it's not about keeping your head back, it's simply timing.

Your left foot relative to your right foot should be probably a few inches back (behind you) as well.