Over a thousand hours in the field and all I got was this stupid form.

[sidewinder22]

^ Door Frame Drills should pull your shoulders further back striding into the plant. Your shoulders are trying to pull the door frame before you plant.

 

[pjsb1]

Delay and/or slow down your turn back. I can see the disc moving rearward beyond your left foot. Then your shoulders end up coming through too early as the disc which is causing loss of power. Your right heel should be hitting the ground as the disc is extended on the reach back. Your disc is moving pretty far forward before you hit the right heel, which would be essentially where the power should start from.

I think the early turn back is also related to your head moving towards the target on the forward swing. If you delayed and or slowed down the turn your head would be in a more forward position already so you can then just rotate and fire. So it's not about keeping your head back, it's simply timing.

Your left foot relative to your right foot should be probably a few inches back (behind you) as well.

These are the main points that normally cause the inconsistency in my throw. Sometimes I do the things you mention very well and those are the throws that go over 400'. In all of these throws (in the most recent post) I'm focusing very hard on my off-arm, my rear foot angle, and my where my weight is as I shift. I'd say if I'm throwing without thinking very much I do still think about keeping my shoulders from turning early and trying to get my reachback timing correct. I found those two things are not something I can just leave up to muscle memory; I have to be careful about them. In any case, this is something I know I do wrong and work actively to fix. I'll work a few reps focusing on my upper body into my form practice today.

I also used to reach too far back with my wrist a little open and when I would suddenly pull on the disc from there it would send a jolt up my arm, so my reach back went under some changes recently to fix that. Definitely worth working on since I changed it.

I'm very surprised you thought my left foot should be farther back, are you saying that it should start farther back? Because when I plant I get my right foot pretty far out in front of me, so I can only assume you mean that in my initial stance I should have my left foot farther back (and I do for standstills). Thanks for the advice!

 

[oldmandiscer]

These are the main points that normally cause the inconsistency in my throw. Sometimes I do the things you mention very well and those are the throws that go over 400'. In all of these throws (in the most recent post) I'm focusing very hard on my off-arm, my rear foot angle, and my where my weight is as I shift. I'd say if I'm throwing without thinking very much I do still think about keeping my shoulders from turning early and trying to get my reachback timing correct. I found those two things are not something I can just leave up to muscle memory; I have to be careful about them. In any case, this is something I know I do wrong and work actively to fix. I'll work a few reps focusing on my upper body into my form practice today.

I also used to reach too far back with my wrist a little open and when I would suddenly pull on the disc from there it would send a jolt up my arm, so my reach back went under some changes recently to fix that. Definitely worth working on since I changed it.

I'm very surprised you thought my left foot should be farther back, are you saying that it should start farther back? Because when I plant I get my right foot pretty far out in front of me, so I can only assume you mean that in my initial stance I should have my left foot farther back (and I do for standstills). Thanks for the advice!

Yeah, try delaying and maybe even slowing down the shoulder turn, maybe try focusing on the target longer before you turn back.

When I say the left foot placement, a little more staggered (not width to and from the target line, width to and from the chest to your back). I think though the stagger is relative to how far a player is bent over as well, because the left leg is counterbalancing the upper body though the shot.

So I saw where Stokley said to stand more erect and you said it worked well, my feeling here is that you don't need the left foot as far back to balance out the upper body if you are throwing with a more upright posture. My general feeling is that a more upright posture can be harder to maintain accuracy. I think most top pro's are bent over quite a bit versus Stokley and his recommendation. I watch his videos on youtube as well and he likes to teach that. I'm not sure it's the best personally, and of course the tilt does change based on the throwing angle too so it's all variable.

I hope that makes sense. But like I said the timing looks off to me as the major thing to work on.

 

[pjsb1]

Yeah, try delaying and maybe even slowing down the shoulder turn, maybe try focusing on the target longer before you turn back.

When I say the left foot placement, a little more staggered (not width to and from the target line, width to and from the chest to your back). I think though the stagger is relative to how far a player is bent over as well, because the left leg is counterbalancing the upper body though the shot.

So I saw where Stokley said to stand more erect and you said it worked well, my feeling here is that you don't need the left foot as far back to balance out the upper body if you are throwing with a more upright posture. My general feeling is that a more upright posture can be harder to maintain accuracy. I think most top pro's are bent over quite a bit versus Stokley and his recommendation. I watch his videos on youtube as well and he likes to teach that. I'm not sure it's the best personally, and of course the tilt does change based on the throwing angle too so it's all variable.

I hope that makes sense. But like I said the timing looks off to me as the major thing to work on.

So when I and Stokely say upright we mean maintaining a straight back. I used to hunch over while I threw a little bit. So I can have a straight back while bent over from the hips, and that's how I practice most of my shots actually, I throw on a hyzer with a straight back bent over from the hips. As for the back foot thing, I think you lost me. Width to and from the chest to the back? I thought initially you were referring to how you should have your toes of your back foot line up with the heel of your front foot, which I thought I already did and actually exaggerate greatly when I plant. That's why I was confused, but now I'm confused because I really don't know what you mean. Are you perhaps saying that my feet should be closer together??? That's something I've been thinking about, if I'm as upright as I am maybe my right foot shouldn't be planting so far out. Sorry about my reading comprehension lol.

 

[oldmandiscer]

So when I and Stokely say upright we mean maintaining a straight back. I used to hunch over while I threw a little bit. So I can have a straight back while bent over from the hips, and that's how I practice most of my shots actually, I throw on a hyzer with a straight back bent over from the hips. As for the back foot thing, I think you lost me. Width to and from the chest to the back? I thought initially you were referring to how you should have your toes of your back foot line up with the heel of your front foot, which I thought I already did and actually exaggerate greatly when I plant. That's why I was confused, but now I'm confused because I really don't know what you mean. Are you perhaps saying that my feet should be closer together??? That's something I've been thinking about, if I'm as upright as I am maybe my right foot shouldn't be planting so far out. Sorry about my reading comprehension lol.

Stokley in his videos talks about standing more straight up and down. So I thought that was what you meant when you said straight "back" as in vertical versus hip bent over.

Yes the difference between your left toe and the space to your right heel. Look and Will from the rearview in the video he sent you. It's about 12+ inches apart (left foot back, right foot forward) and you will see the top players have a fairly common large stagger.

It's hard to tell in your videos how much stagger you have, it almost looked in line on some but the camera angles were hard to tell. So I would say try doing more, when I said do a few inches. Longer leg guys will naturally be able to do more, Lizotte, Will, etc. But I think it's to simply balance the tilt from the upper body, the taller guys need more.

 

[pjsb1]

Stokley in his videos talks about standing more straight up and down. So I thought that was what you meant when you said straight "back" as in vertical versus hip bent over.

Yes the difference between your left toe and the space to your right heel. Look and Will from the rearview in the video he sent you. It's about 12+ inches apart (left foot back, right foot forward) and you will see the top players have a fairly common large stagger.

It's hard to tell in your videos how much stagger you have, it almost looked in line on some but the camera angles were hard to tell. So I would say try doing more, when I said do a few inches. Longer leg guys will naturally be able to do more, Lizotte, Will, etc. But I think it's to simply balance the tilt from the upper body, the taller guys need more.

I mean, here's my feet from the last video I did https://imgur.com/a/2UIaNbX

Keep in mind I'm not throwing off to the left in those throws, just like Will in the video he sent me, my feet are facing a bit left but I'm throwing straight (or right by accident in 2 of those throws because my shoulders are late). So I feel like my feet are pretty wide apart. And the only reason I'm pushing back on this so much is because I really feel like I'm almost spreading my feet too far apart so it feels weird to get feedback saying the opposite. Don't get me wrong though, I'm definitely going to try it. I'll try anything if it means my form could be better lol, anyway, I appreciate the input!

 

[oldmandiscer]

I mean, here's my feet from the last video I did https://imgur.com/a/2UIaNbX

Keep in mind I'm not throwing off to the left in those throws, just like Will in the video he sent me, my feet are facing a bit left but I'm throwing straight (or right by accident in 2 of those throws because my shoulders are late). So I feel like my feet are pretty wide apart. And the only reason I'm pushing back on this so much is because I really feel like I'm almost spreading my feet too far apart so it feels weird to get feedback saying the opposite. Don't get me wrong though, I'm definitely going to try it. I'll try anything if it means my form could be better lol, anyway, I appreciate the input!

Feet look fine there. Also your shoulders were early, not late (I know you mean open). Little to early on the way back and thus forward opening up versus powering from the weight transfer to the right heel.

 

[pjsb1]

Alright I think today was pretty eye-opening. The main thing I was focusing on was making sure I was bending my left knee and having my right leg almost straight as I was going into the plant step. I was also focusing on making sure to focus on my reachback not going too early and not pulling through until after I had planted. I thought about how the forehand plant works and tried to make sure I didn't pull through at all until after I planted. I quickly realized I needed to fix my reachback and pull through at the same time, it just wouldn't work otherwise. So I thought about how as your right leg goes out your arm goes back and just focused on that and waiting until I felt the weight on my right heel to start to pull through. There were a few other things I needed to tweek (and still need to) after I fixed that, I realized I need to have my back leg bent enough so that I stay level as I go from my back foot into my plant, otherwise I ended up throwing it straight into the ground. Sometimes I would start with it bent and then straighten it as I turned my shoulders back, realizing that and fixing it helped a lot.

https://youtu.be/ZtZ4vyxR8wc

The things I wasn't able to fix by the end of the day, and what I'll work on going forward:
1. My dang off-arm still hasn't changed muscle memory yet and is very inconsistent, I'll get it eventually, but for now it's not throwing me off balance so I'm not super worried about it.
2. My shoulders are definitely going too early even though I'm not leading with my head too badly
3. Now I understand why hips need to go first, I need to get my hips to GO right after getting my heel down and really make sure they go before the shoulders, it'll help get my elbow into the right place and add a lot of power.
4. I still need to focus very hard to get my reachback correct and not pull until I plant. Not pulling until I plant will probably also be hard once I start trying to get my hips to go right after I plant because I might jump the gun trying to do that.
5. I need to eventually do this consistently with a runup, I tried once and it went... ok. I got the reachback and pull through timing correct and that was about it.


All that being said, I was able to match my standstill 350' with this throw which I'm very happy about considering all the changes I attempted to make today, and then all the changes I had to make after making changes. Also, please correct me if I said anything dumb in this post, or did anything dumb in my throw that I didn't bring up. Thanks for all the help so far!

 

[oldmandiscer]

I think you are on the right track, the timing looked much better on that video. Now is just rinse and repeat and I think you will start to see distance gains and accuracy as well as your body adjusts to the changes. They say it takes 3000 reps to create new "muscle memory" over a period of time to relearn new skills which is why it's so hard to break the old habits. You need to do those 3000 correctly as well which is the most challenging part.

 

[sidewinder22]

Need to stop your rear knee/hip from collapsing in backswing. Open up the rear leg - point rear knee/foot further back away from target to hold torsion.

 

[pjsb1]

Awesome, I'll add that to my list of things to work on next time. I can see in the image that my hip is going out over my knee because my knee can't turn any farther back due to my back foot's angle, should be fairly simple to observe and correct while working on it in a field now that I'm aware of it. Also, I love that you use those stills and gifs of Will from his instructional video, I go back to those all the time so as soon as see it in your post I know exactly what you're trying to get me to look at.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think your rear foot angle is pretty close to mine, but I straighten the knee which puts the knee into torsion and rotates the femur out to post up on rear leg. I think you are bending your rear knee and hip. Will obviously has his foot more flared open and knee bent, but his knee/hip is not collapsed. I'm not a big fan of how Will's rear knee goes back past the ankle, for beginners to learn, I prefer to keep everything more braced up inside the ankle/s, I think it's easier to learn with a more compact weightshift in the backswing.

 

[pjsb1]

It looks like I'm just going to have to put more reps in trying to fix this stuff, was able to throw 370' with a one-step today which might be a new personal best for a one-step, not entirely sure. Doesn't seem like there's much of a point yet to posting more videos because I'm still just working on the same things due to the amount of stuff I have to work on now that I changed my reachback and pull-through timing. I'll post again soon if I'm having trouble or if I'm doing well and feel like adding a run-up.

Also, I'm trying to keep my knee straighter as well as keep pressure on my toes so I rotate the femur as you say. I just have to remember to have the knee bend (due to having pressure on it) as I move into the plant so I don't just throw straight into the ground. Doing the disc golf strong warmup before I throw helps me remember this.

 

[sidewinder22]

Also, I'm trying to keep my knee straighter as well as keep pressure on my toes so I rotate the femur as you say. I just have to remember to have the knee bend (due to having pressure on it) as I move into the plant so I don't just throw straight into the ground. Doing the disc golf strong warmup before I throw helps me remember this.

The pressure should move around the rear foot, toes to heel in backswing and back to toes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2Zrf5GbvdE#t=2m

 

[pjsb1]

But when I'm doing a run-up I probably won't end up on my heel on my back foot due to the momentum correct? Am I right in saying this mostly applies to standstills? Not that I'm doing runups yet, I just want to make sure I understand.

 

[sidewinder22]

The pressure moves toward heel, not necessarily into heel.

 

[pjsb1]

Alright this throw is still very much a work in progress. Making this breakthrough unlocked a lot of stuff I have to keep practicing but I thought I'd share an update. I was able to beat my previous best throw speed of 61 mph and I got 62 mph. Except this time I did it with a one step

https://youtu.be/oh5zdQNopRI

I also got one 63 mph with a run-up but those aren't really ready yet. I need to keep working on standstill, as you can see my off-arm is still wild at times and there are some other things I need to iron out.

Honestly, this is amazing. I've paid 4 people for lessons, and 2 of them got me to throw backhand marginally better, but this advice is by far the most in depth and helpful. Thanks a lot!

 

[sidewinder22]

I do paid private lessons and also accept tips via PayPal seabas22@yahoo.

Need to change your tilt back going into plant. Chin/spine should change tilt matching with the right leg swinging underneath it. Elbow hips forward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90&t=9m42s

 

[pjsb1]

I do paid private lessons and also accept tips via PayPal seabas22@yahoo.

Need to change your tilt back going into plant. Chin/spine should change tilt matching with the right leg swinging underneath it. Elbow hips forward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90&t=9m42s

Yeah the elbow and hips forward thing is exactly what I'm working on, it's like you're reading my mind. Not sure exactly what you mean by the chin/spine should change tilt matching with the right leg? Like my spine should be aligned with the throw better?

I do actually live quite close to you, I'd be up for a paid lesson once I iron out this form a bit more. I also will definitely do more work on my forehand after I feel pretty good about my backhand.

 

[oldmandiscer]

Alright this throw is still very much a work in progress. Making this breakthrough unlocked a lot of stuff I have to keep practicing but I thought I'd share an update. I was able to beat my previous best throw speed of 61 mph and I got 62 mph. Except this time I did it with a one step

https://youtu.be/oh5zdQNopRI

I also got one 63 mph with a run-up but those aren't really ready yet. I need to keep working on standstill, as you can see my off-arm is still wild at times and there are some other things I need to iron out.

Honestly, this is amazing. I've paid 4 people for lessons, and 2 of them got me to throw backhand marginally better, but this advice is by far the most in depth and helpful. Thanks a lot!

I think a lot of Pro's know how to do it, but are not great at diagnosing others and how to teach them. It's great to see you are making progress. :thmbup: