OverthrowJosh here. AMA

[CoachChris]

I misworded, I don't mean I have a negative opinion on all cues lol. I just meant that some specific cues jar me pretty hard, and this is one of them.

I understand everything you are saying, and that in reality most people are not going to execute the literal demonstration...but I would argue that you are in fact advocating for violent maximal supination if the cue is...to literally flip the disc over the top of your hand. Maybe not advocating, but certainly that a reasonable human could not be faulted for interpreting it that way.

I find 'turning the key' to be a more reasonable cue terminology. I would not expect many people to interpret those words to mean that they need to turn that key quickly, nor that they might need to turn it until their palm is facing the sky.

Im really not arguing with ya though, I hear what you are saying.

The 'turning the key' if done excessively is similar to 'flipping the disc' in the amount of supination. Have to 'flip' or 'turn' the forearm quickly is directly related to the angle you pull the disc into the power pocket. GG hangs it like a briefcase and needs to have a large range of supination in a short period of time. Eliezra is supinating on reach back and is throwing nose down (supinating) throughput her pull.

 

[Brychanus]

To throw nose down with pronation, switch to an "overhand wrist flip" (chicken wing). On a normal backhand, pronation leads to some beautiful air bounces.

This?

 

[itlnstln]

This?

Yeah, that's it. I've never seen one that good, though. Used to be a *little* more common back in the day, but pretty much nobody throws that way any more for obvious reasons

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah, that's it. I've never seen one that good, though. Used to be a *little* more common back in the day, but pretty much nobody throws that way any more for obvious reasons

Thanks- I mean I'll definitely give it a try one time for fun!

 

[EllEstar]

Hey Josh, thanks for this, here's a couple of Qs.

1. I've heard you talk about being exceptionally good (my words, not yours) at fixing peoples' putt, at least mechanically, but you have made very little content about putting.
   1. What are the most common errors you see?
   2. What do you think are the most important things to have a - mechanically - good putt?
2. Is there anything you've observed, or theorized, about grip that you'd be willing to share? Grip styles, pressure, alignment, strength, etc.
3. You are one of the few technique oriented coaches I've seen that also puts out at least some amount of forehand information. Do you have an idea of why that is? Especially when it would seem like it's more similar to most throwing motions than a backhand?
4. Is there anything about disc golf training, or disc golf coaching that a lot of people are missing or ignoring?

Thanks in advance, bro!

 

[BenjiHeywood]

Hi Josh,

Big fan of your work, particularly your ability to break concepts down for non-specialists (even if i do hate the 'arm it' one lol).

I've just started coaching my first remote/online-only person. Any advice on possible pitfalls and problems to avoid?

Thanks!

 

[Sewer bill]

HI josh cool of you to show up. I don't think you have ill motivations, just that you're running a business.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

Hey Josh, thanks for this, here's a couple of Qs.

1. I've heard you talk about being exceptionally good (my words, not yours) at fixing peoples' putt, at least mechanically, but you have made very little content about putting.
   1. What are the most common errors you see?
   2. What do you think are the most important things to have a - mechanically - good putt?
2. Is there anything you've observed, or theorized, about grip that you'd be willing to share? Grip styles, pressure, alignment, strength, etc.
3. You are one of the few technique oriented coaches I've seen that also puts out at least some amount of forehand information. Do you have an idea of why that is? Especially when it would seem like it's more similar to most throwing motions than a backhand?
4. Is there anything about disc golf training, or disc golf coaching that a lot of people are missing or ignoring?

Thanks in advance, bro!

Yo,
Thanks for the questions. I don't know how to format my response exactly like you did on here so bear with me.

Putting
Ahhhh putting. I both love it and I hate it. I've had pretty severe putting yips for a while and our first video made it worse for me. I wanted to step back and dive into putting at a level similar to that of the serve in tennis with its variety (slice, topspin, kick, and flat).
As much as people like to say that putting is unique i think there are patterns that accompany each style. In noticing these patterns you can more quickly apply the correct fix to a problem rather than saying "this worked for me." For example, a push putter will say to a struggling spin putter "you've gotta use finger pop. Watch this Calvin video where he talks about it." Well, spin putters don't generate power via finger pop so that doesn't help unless he changes a bunch of other things about his putt along with it. It's better for me to go in and tweak one thing that is broken/mismatched stylistically than build a completely new putt.

1. Common problems I see outside of stylistic mismatches are:

• Having an incorrect line
• Bad weight shift
• Timing/sequencing problems

2. This answer is basically the inverse of the above with a couple extras

• Simple and repeatable motion
• Disc stays on line the whole time
• Fewer levers and no lag generation from up close is more consistent

Grip theory
I do have some theories that I have tested with students regarding grip with success but am not 100% on if they are accurate or not. I'm still figuring how they all fit together and what the best way to frame them are. I've come upon "revelations" that I thought were "the thing" that really turned out to just be impacting something else stylistically. I've had so many that I'm tepid about putting anything solid out on it yet, but I feel like I'm getting close to understanding the full picture.
One theory I have regarding grip pressure is that where you put your pressure depends on the type of putter you are. If you are a push putter you are supinating to get the pop. In this case you want your pressure on the bottom of the disc and the thumb/index pressure is only enough to keep the disc in your hand while you move it forward. This allows the thumb to clear first and reduces grip locks on putts. It would be the opposite for spin putts where they tend to pronate during the motion.

Forehand Content
I come from tennis so we taught every aspect of the game. It was pretty vast. Personally I wouldn't want to coach just one part of the game. I'd like to be a coach that can help wherever is most needed.
I've asked other coaches this question and most of the time the answer is that they don't know much about the other topics and therefore aren't confident teaching them. The only coach I know that is actively teaching more than just one aspect of the game is Chris Taylor.

Is there anything missing is disc golf training/coaching?
This is an interesting question to answer in this crowd, but here goes lol. I don't think there is much actual coaching going on. There is a disconnect between form knowledge and coaching; this group is perhaps not the best about seeing the distinction. I often have new students who know exactly what their problems are (official names and all) but have not the slightest clue on how to fix their myriad of issues. In most sports the student does not know what the problem is, they just know they want their stroke to improve. From there a coach gives the minimal viable information to get them doing the correct things. In disc golf a student comes to you, tells you everything they know they are doing wrong, and what they should be doing. Their knowledge is their downfall. It is a trap we have laid for them. Instead of the solution being to feel the right feels and working until they do, they turn from their failure clutching the excuse of "that guy didn't know what he was talking about" or "there must be something I don't know yet."

The desire for a coach to push people past a barrier is real and an inexperienced coach quickly goes toward giving more and more information. It feels good to show a student how knowledgeable you are and it makes them really feel like it was a good use of their time/money. It's not. A good coach aims to show more; aims to get their student feeling more. More simple. More basic. Less info.

I too feel the pressure of not giving enough information, especially when compared to my peers. I'd love to talk about forced coupling in standstills and closed kinetic loops and all that, but it doesn't belong in videos or the vast majority of lessons. Those conversations are better had on phone calls with other coaches and they are quite enjoyable.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

Hi Josh,

Big fan of your work, particularly your ability to break concepts down for non-specialists (even if i do hate the 'arm it' one lol).

I've just started coaching my first remote/online-only person. Any advice on possible pitfalls and problems to avoid?

Thanks!

Virtual coaching is not ideal that's for sure. It's especially tough when you can't touch the player.

A couple things that I think are helpful:

1. Angles are your friend. Don't be afraid to show lots of angles and have them show you different angles. I've got my iPad on a tripod and move it regularly.
2. Get them moving! Spending time working through drills and going through motions is so valuable. Most of my students have a net and I throw into an impact screen. There's nothing wrong with a session where you spend 30 minutes practicing a single movement. It's probably what they need actually. Don't get sucked into a form review where you break down all 7 of their issues. It's better to spend time really getting after 1 or 2 things and showing them a clear practicing path than to show them 12 things for them to bounce around between when the first gives them the slightest hint of trouble.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

HI josh cool of you to show up. I don't think you have ill motivations, just that you're running a business.

I am certainly running a business but do have a clarifying question based on some of your previous comments.

It's not about what works and what actually yields results. It's about clicks and selling crap.

Contextually the above comment appears to be written about myself (as it was a response to our "flip the disc" video). If I'm wrong please correct me. But based on this comment it would seem that your remark of "just that you're running a business" seems to be stating that I don't actually care about the results of my students but instead care about "clicks and selling crap."

Making videos for clicks and selling crap at the expense of yielding results for my students would be an ill motivation in my book so I'm more than happy to answer any questions in regards to our YouTube videos, how we come up with them, and my students' results.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Right on, I run a business too.. right, wrong or otherwise the explanation of the work is key. There's always room for improvement.

 

[Sewer bill]

I am certainly running a business but do have a clarifying question based on some of your previous comments.

Contextually the above comment appears to be written about myself (as it was a response to our "flip the disc" video). If I'm wrong please correct me. But based on this comment it would seem that your remark of "just that you're running a business" seems to be stating that I don't actually care about the results of my students but instead care about "clicks and selling crap."

Making videos for clicks and selling crap at the expense of yielding results for my students would be an ill motivation in my book so I'm more than happy to answer any questions in regards to our YouTube videos, how we come up with them, and my students' results.

I was thinking more about slingshots stupid stick thing he's trying to sell when I made that comment about clicks and selling crap. Contextually in your defense it was in a thread about you and entering that thread I didn't even watch your video which the thread topic was about I just assumed it was another "do this x to get y" type video, there's lots of those, many are just filler content in my opinion, and I'm not the target demographic.

Here's the thing. I don't know you, all I know is at face value you are for profit and make videos and people apparently pay you for personalized lessons which I assume they find very useful otherwise you wouldn't be selling them anymore. You still have to market yourself in the youtube flavor which I find personally irritating, it's not your fault I understand how the algorithm works.

You should stick around though we have some fun arguments.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

I was thinking more about slingshots stupid stick thing he's trying to sell when I made that comment about clicks and selling crap. Contextually in your defense it was in a thread about you and entering that thread I didn't even watch your video which the thread topic was about I just assumed it was another "do this x to get y" type video, there's lots of those, many are just filler content in my opinion, and I'm not the target demographic.

Here's the thing. I don't know you, all I know is at face value you are for profit and make videos and people apparently pay you for personalized lessons which I assume they find very useful otherwise you wouldn't be selling them anymore. You still have to market yourself in the youtube flavor which I find personally irritating, it's not your fault I understand how the algorithm works.

You should stick around though we have some fun arguments.

It is fair to say that our YouTube channel is a marketing funnel for private lessons and I am definitely for profit. I have even encouraged SW22 and other coaches to charge for their lessons as I believe there are benefits on both sides of the equation.

Paid coaching:
I believe that if we want to move the sport forward coaches are imperative. People learning at an improved pace will make kids do cooler things with discs will bring in more sponsors. Not everyone wants the sport to grow in this way. I do, so I take steps toward this goal. Getting paid for lessons is not only beneficial for me but it paves the way for more coaches in disc golf.

Practically, if I wasn't getting paid I wouldn't coach. I had a choice between continuing to be Director of Tennis at a country club or going full time disc golf coach. In order for me to coach disc golf my income had to be partly replaced. This will be the same for others that are considering taking time away from their families to pour into disc golf. Imagine if @Brychanus was faced with the decision to not coach disc golf because he ran out of free time and funds were tight. Even an extra $500/mo might be the difference maker in him continuing to contribute to this sport or walking away to pick up more hours/responsibilities at work.

This is why I'm very open about how much we make on Patreon. We could toggle that setting and hide the number but I want people considering coaching to see that they can make money coaching people.

If you suck as a coach and don't get results, students don't come back, like you said.

YouTube:
We actually don't play the YouTube game and don't care about the algorithm. For those lurking that may be interested I'll go through a sample process.

1. The video concept: Almost all of our video concepts come from things I am teaching in private lessons. I teach roughly 100 lessons a month. If I have to explain the same thing to 20 of those lessons I assume that a lot of other people need to hear it and it gets put in a video. Basically, lessons give me a good indicator of things I feel the greater disc golf populace should hear and I'm trying to put private lesson Josh out of business.

2. The video content: The tough thing about this is that I have to act like I'm talking to a singular person on YouTube that is overgeneralized. You can't coach a concept and catch everyone. You're gonna hit some and miss others completely. In deciding how to parse out a topic I have to pick 1 of the 7 explanations of it and go with that. If I do more than that I risk giving too much information. I'd rather have one person understand it in a simple way they can implement it than two people paralyzed by too much information. You can imagine with the threads in here that we have a lot of people with a disproportionate amount of knowledge to skill. That is not a coincidence. There is definitely a correlation to knowing everything and being able to implement nothing.
So, the video content is short and focuses on a tiny aspect of a vast subject most of the time and runs the risk of being overly simplistic. And Mikey edits it down really well too of course. We also enjoy making videos so sometimes we just do fun things in them for our benefit.

3. Titles and Thumbnails: We don't do clickbait. This of course depends on your definition of clickbait, but we don't create titles and thumbnails to trick people into clicking and watching something they aren't looking for. I would call this click bait and switch.

Every title and thumbnail have the goal of informing the potential viewer of what is going to be in the video.

Take our last video for example:
How to BIG Putt | Coaching Mikey to 100ft Spin Putts


I think it is pretty obvious that if you click on this video you are going to see a couple things: instruction on how to putt big distances and me coaching Mikey to 100ft spin putts.

Between the thumbnail and title you should be fully informed of whether you want to spend your time watching it or not. Now if you click on that and in the video I only have Mikey putting at 25' the whole time and say "If you can make 25 footers, congratulations! That's a big putt in my book!" That would be misinformation and would actually be clickbait.

We could 4x our view count if we wanted to by using actual click bait. The views we get are because we have informative titles versus uninformative ones. YouTube only cares about if people watch your video and if they watch it for a long time. If you have a video that doesn't do what people expect it to do then they just leave, your average view duration tanks, and YouTube doesn't promote you. Turns out when you show people exactly what the video is going to be about and deliver on it things also go well with YouTube.

 

[StupendousMan]

@OverthrowJosh
Re: Paid coaching

This is a huge point. In Canada at least, this is a very uphill battle in track and field. Comparatively, I'm compensated quite well compared to the majority of coaches with my level of experience and ability in Canada. But, it's still very low. Obviously, I do it because I love it. There are very few paid track and field jobs in Canada, and most of them are in leadership capacity where you don't get to actually coach much any more. Comparatively, someone of my experience and skill in most countries would be making a full time living off it. I know for a fact many coaches in America make full time livings from it with a lot less experience and skill. I am not a unicorn in that sense I can think of twenty other coaches in Canada off hand in the exact same boat. Our coaching association is putting forward a lot of push to advocate for more fair compensation. But, it's a battle. My S&C work has a higher base rate for me, but I'd consider my track knowledge far superior.

I'll never knock coaches for asking to be paid, we need to be better advocates for ourselves, but typically it's that quality that also contributes to us being good coaches.

But, and I'm not about to name names in track or disc golf here, if we want to get paid, we better be able to back it up. Crap coaches with little skill or experience gouging athletes sets all of us back in this quest.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

@OverthrowJosh
Re: Paid coaching

This is a huge point. In Canada at least, this is a very uphill battle in track and field. Comparatively, I'm compensated quite well compared to the majority of coaches with my level of experience and ability in Canada. But, it's still very low. Obviously, I do it because I love it. There are very few paid track and field jobs in Canada, and most of them are in leadership capacity where you don't get to actually coach much any more. Comparatively, someone of my experience and skill in most countries would be making a full time living off it. I know for a fact many coaches in America make full time livings from it with a lot less experience and skill. I am not a unicorn in that sense I can think of twenty other coaches in Canada off hand in the exact same boat. Our coaching association is putting forward a lot of push to advocate for more fair compensation. But, it's a battle.

I'll never knock coaches for asking to be paid, we need to be better advocates for ourselves, but typically it's that quality that also contributes to us being good coaches.

But, and I'm not about to name names in track or disc golf here, if we want to get paid, we better be able to back it up. Crap coaches with little skill or experience gouging athletes sets all of us back in this quest.

Heard. There are lots of European countries where disc golf is taken very seriously and there is even a coach on government payroll (partial income I think). I've run into a couple European coaches and know even Germany is building an official curriculum/certification test. It's pretty cool.

Credentials moving forward is an interesting conversation in how that fleshes out practically. Personally I'd like to see it move towards how the USPTA does their testing where there is a knowledge portion and practical portion of the exam. In the meantime I'm trying to help push the rock towards "coaches get results" as a stop gap to lack of certification and part of the Mikey series goal is to add validity to teaching that way. There is a shift toward seeking coaching even among some pro tour players so hopefully we can be taken seriously sooner rather than later. Currently the disc golf world is not entirely convinced coaches have a purpose lol

 

[StupendousMan]

I'm intrigued to hear a bit more about that USPTA credentialing scenario. We have a similar setup in Athletics here. For each level you submit a portfolio of your work (the exam portion more or less) and then a practical evaluation portion. Contrarily, my NSCA credential came with only an exam and no practical evaluation. The exam had an applied portion of course, but it's not the same.

I can see what you mean with the Mikey example, and I think the video working with Evan Smith is a big step in that direction too. Once a few pros start plugging coaching as an influence on their results, it'll hopefully start to move that dial. But I agree completely that a lot of the disc golf world doesn't see a need for a coach and it seems wild to me, but I think a lot of that world sees coaching in a team sport dynamic where the biomechanical knowledge etc gets hidden and tactics and team culture are the big focus. Coming from largely individual sports it's pretty natural both you and I would immediately see the value of coaching in disc golf.

 

[sidewinder22]

Forehand Content
I come from tennis so we taught every aspect of the game. It was pretty vast. Personally I wouldn't want to coach just one part of the game. I'd like to be a coach that can help wherever is most needed.
I've asked other coaches this question and most of the time the answer is that they don't know much about the other topics and therefore aren't confident teaching them. The only coach I know that is actively teaching more than just one aspect of the game is Chris Taylor.

I've coached many players with their forehand, just haven't done nearly as much content. Haven't you seen my quantent?

Is there anything missing is disc golf training/coaching?
This is an interesting question to answer in this crowd, but here goes lol. I don't think there is much actual coaching going on. There is a disconnect between form knowledge and coaching; this group is perhaps not the best about seeing the distinction. I often have new students who know exactly what their problems are (official names and all) but have not the slightest clue on how to fix their myriad of issues. In most sports the student does not know what the problem is, they just know they want their stroke to improve. From there a coach gives the minimal viable information to get them doing the correct things. In disc golf a student comes to you, tells you everything they know they are doing wrong, and what they should be doing. Their knowledge is their downfall. It is a trap we have laid for them. Instead of the solution being to feel the right feels and working until they do, they turn from their failure clutching the excuse of "that guy didn't know what he was talking about" or "there must be something I don't know yet."

The desire for a coach to push people past a barrier is real and an inexperienced coach quickly goes toward giving more and more information. It feels good to show a student how knowledgeable you are and it makes them really feel like it was a good use of their time/money. It's not. A good coach aims to show more; aims to get their student feeling more. More simple. More basic. Less info.

I too feel the pressure of not giving enough information, especially when compared to my peers. I'd love to talk about forced coupling in standstills and closed kinetic loops and all that, but it doesn't belong in videos or the vast majority of lessons. Those conversations are better had on phone calls with other coaches and they are quite enjoyable.

Knowledge is not the same thing as Understanding. Knowledge can be learned quickly while Understanding takes time. I don't think knowledge is a downfall, unless it's false knowledge. Like trying to fix all the little effects or byproducts instead of the root cause. Not all students are the same, some need to know why they need to be doing something different. Then I tell them like the others to go toss a sledgehammer or kick some cans, or don't spill the beverage. Most of the Zoom lessons I do with students are 15 min session per my recommendation because I want to hammer on the fundamental issue and don't want to go over too much stuff that will get them lost in the brambles. The few in person lessons I do out on the field I also try to keep relatively short like 30-60min although I ended up spending several hours working with a very motivated touring pro.

Coaching point:
Usually when I get a comment like that from SW it's because I'm confused and/or overthinking it.

General advice since I know him/his style well: SW usually gives his coaching points just to change exactly and only what he wants you to tweak given whatever else is going on. Usually when he ignores what you said it is intentional. My dance instructor got through to me the same way.

In this case, enough else about what you were doing will probably work better if you do exactly (or close to exactly) what he said.

Since you and I apparently have a similar curiosity quotient and tendency to "look at our finger rather than the moon," I'd suggest you take it as "trajectory-aligned" as precisely as you can, grind it a bit, and see where you're at. It's related to your lack of ideal coil and weight shift.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Heard. There are lots of European countries where disc golf is taken very seriously and there is even a coach on government payroll (partial income I think). I've run into a couple European coaches and know even Germany is building an official curriculum/certification test. It's pretty cool.

The certification consists of 120 units which are split into 60 units going over general training stuff and 60 units going over more specific discgolf stuff. The units are taught over a whole week as a workshop. I think it is less about form or mechanics specific to discgolf but more about a general introduction on how to conduct and structure practice.

If there is interest a guy from my local club goes through the certification this year and I can ask him what the course more specifically involved.

Some of the clubs in germany also offer weekly/bi-weekly training sessions of very varying quality. On what used to be my local course we had a guy who taught everything Feldberg and was pretty knowledgeable about form but struggled with teaching. Nowadays someone who mostly teaches form that would be best described as Will Schusterick took it over and it works well as most people in the club have noticeably above average form.

Ausbildung – Deutscher Frisbeesport-Verband

www.frisbeesportverband.de

 

[HyooMac]

Thank you Josh (and everybody) for taking the time to make this an interesting conversation. THIS is what makes DGCR so valuable to me (besides the reviews of course).

 

[TiltedFlipCurves]

Bowling (USBC) has a reasonably good system of training and certifying coaches at various levels. Level I for basic knowledge to coach kids & novices, Bronze for intermediate, Silver for advanced, Gold for pushing the frontiers of coaching. The actual "Find-a-Coach" feature is busted (name and city) unless the coach pays for Coach+ though to have full information on the site

It would be nice if PDGA came up with something similar.