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Par Talk

Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?

  • A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .
Do you still have your data from Idlewild last year? Be interested to see what the new pars look like compared to the numbers from last year. I tried to search for it but this thread is so damn big, lol. Figured it might be quicker to just ask.
 
Please join me. Whenever you feel that need to talk about par, come here.

Thank you. A few questions....

1) Do you realistically ever see par 2s being accepted and utilized at pro tournaments? If so...when do you think this will happen?

2) Would you agree Eagle (and the Eaglets of the near future) have changed the perception of what par is and that any perceived solution would be out dated in only a few years as longer and longer throwers enter the pro rank?

3) Obviously making longer holes is not a permanent solution due to cost of land, etc, etc, so with that in mind would you favor adding artificial obstacles like fake trees, bushes, etc, at strategic locations on existing courses to make them more difficult?

4) Why haven't we installed marksman like baskets for use at the majors, nts, etc? Seems like a fairly easy way to increase the difficulty of putting without changing anything else. I realize c1 putting won't change that much, but certainly putts from c2 or better would be affected.
 
I say, make the holes be the best they can, and then make par describe what you expect to happen.

Instead of letting par theories govern course design. Or, for that matter, target design.

If you are making holes the best they can be par theory is already incorporated in the design. Otherwise you are ignoring the beauty and infinite complexity of the game of golf.
 
If you are making holes the best they can be par theory is already incorporated in the design. Otherwise you are ignoring the beauty and infinite complexity of the game of golf.

If, somehow, we didn't use par at all, by any definition, wouldn't good hole design be the same?

Does changing par from "throws to the circle plus two" (not in definition, but de facto) to "throws to close range plus two" (close range being more than the circle) or just "expected score" change which holes are considered well designed, and which ones poorly designed?
 
Well, I doubt it will lead to 4 tees per hole, or much more difficult putting, and I have it on good authority that as long as it doesn't, it is just a waste of time.
 
My thought, looking at UDisc scoring, is that the events that use UDisc scoring have effectively defined "close range" as circle 2. Top professional players are expected to get in the basket with two throws from within circle 2. To me, this seems to most closely resemble the ball golf expectation of two putts on the putting green.
 
Yes, but professional disc golfers are expected to get in the basket with one throw, when in the circle.
 
One of the things UDisc doesn't take into account is amount of foliage/ease of approach from within the various circles. PMantle, does ball golf account for various challenges on the putting green in their stats? Or once a golfer has hit the clearly defined green, does every stroke count as a putt attempt?
 
Thank you. A few questions....

1) Do you realistically ever see par 2s being accepted and utilized at pro tournaments? If so...when do you think this will happen?

They've been used for decades. In fact, the very early use probably was what caused a backlash.

These days, I don't think anyone seriously questions whether it is possible that there are holes where a 1000-rated player expects to get a 2. Even the commentators on video have used a phrase like "really a par 2".

Short holes in general don't work as well, no matter the par. So, I think as holes are tagged as par 2s, most TDs will try to toughen them up to par 3.

However, I think some TDs will discover the psychological pressure of stepping up to a par 2. Even though we have "must birdie" holes now, there's still the consolation prize of getting "par" if you fail. Strip away that veneer of 3-is-OK-ness and the pressure increases. As a par 2, even your Mom watching you on ESPN will know you messed up with a 3.

2) Would you agree Eagle (and the Eaglets of the near future) have changed the perception of what par is and that any perceived solution would be out dated in only a few years as longer and longer throwers enter the pro rank?

The huge under par numbers have always had more to do with the variability in the skill level par was set for. Some pars used at pro tournaments are high enough to be good for recreational players. Some TDs still think a pro tournament played on an intermediate course should use intermediate pars. Or at least don't make the effort to change some of the pars from those on the tee signs.

There are tournaments where there are no top players, yet the under par numbers are far more ridiculous than the 16 and 18 unders of the best players. The historic performances probably shine on a light on the situation, but par isn't defined for the best players in the world. They'll always be able to have big-under-par rounds, just a few less under.

If the solution is to set par to be the expected score of a 1000-rated player it will last forever. Or, it will change slowly as (or if?) the skill that is represented by 1000-rated players changes.

3) Obviously making longer holes is not a permanent solution due to cost of land, etc, etc, so with that in mind would you favor adding artificial obstacles like fake trees, bushes, etc, at strategic locations on existing courses to make them more difficult?

We don't need longer holes to get par right. It's a lazy tailor who insists your arms are too short for the suit. Par should fit whatever holes are out there.

I'll set aside the question of whether fake trouble is OK or not and just address the par implications.

Merely adding some higher scores does not affect par. It affects the average score, but not par.

For example, changing a par 2 into an island hole will not make it a par 3. If hitting the island is expected, it's a par 2. If hitting the island is not expected, it's the world's least-fun par 4.

Adding Hazards that are so small and so near the target that it doesn't make sense to even try to avoid them does not increase par. It just increases average score.

If OB or any other kind of trouble is going to raise par, it needs to affect the throws in some way. A lake that is too wide to throw over can make players take the long way around. A Hazard that is big enough and the right distance from the target can make players try to land on the other side of the target.

Unavoidable trouble can only increase par if so many players are affected by it that it becomes the expected play. In most cases, that would suck.

4) Why haven't we installed marksman like baskets for use at the majors, nts, etc? Seems like a fairly easy way to increase the difficulty of putting without changing anything else. I realize c1 putting won't change that much, but certainly putts from c2 or better would be affected.

Again, you're thinking the arms are too short for the suit.

Missing more putts is no fun, and only the better players have more difficulty putting on Marksmen targets.
 
We don't need longer holes to get par right. It's a lazy tailor who insists your arms are too short for the suit. Par should fit whatever holes are out there.

I would argue fitting par to the hole is the lazy approach.

Pretty much any hole where the expected score is one less than traditional golf par (shots to reach plus two) almost always involves a simple shot or series of simple shots. I'm not sure why you would ever want to simply adjust par rather than look for a way to improve the hole, whether it be lengthening, shortening, adding obstacles, tucking baskets, etc. Obviously improving the hole is not always an option, but certainly just changing the number on the tee sign is the lazy fix, and should only be used as a last resort.
 
Do you still have your data from Idlewild last year? Be interested to see what the new pars look like compared to the numbers from last year. I tried to search for it but this thread is so damn big, lol. Figured it might be quicker to just ask.

I try to put the tournament name in the post with the charts, so you can search General Disc Golf Chat for posts by me with the tournament name as keywords. In this case, it's back at #1627.

However, so I can compare the new method, I re-ran the numbers to get this chart.

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Here is the new method.

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The new method would give a lower-than-course par on holes #1, #2, #4, #11 and #16, and raised par on #17. Total of par 62 would have been rated about 1030.

With par by the new method, throws on the course would have a 13.4% chance of error, 7.0% chance of saving a throw, 0.7% chance of costing two throws, and 0.4% chance of saving two throws, so 78.5% of throws would be expected.
 

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TTo do that, for each par candidate it figures out the percent of throws that were "errors" – cost the 1000-rated player a throw – and "heroes" - saved the 1000-rated player a throw.

So you account for errors, which, according to you, means any throw that costs another throw. So the following are errors, right?

All missed putts, irrespective of distance.
Any OB throw.

and, the implication that I see as the worst,

Any throw that doesn't land in the basket.

Then, for some reason, "heroes" are figured in, which includes:

Any throw that lands in the basket.

Omitted from errors are:

Any throw that may strike a tree or hit a bystander or land on the wrong fairway, etc., as long as it doesn't cost an additional throw.

Right?
 
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