Par Talk

[PMantle]

Um...no. :doh:

Uhm, yes. This isn't even debatable. If you think it is, you have no nothing about golf.

 

[PMantle]

Again, you've enlightened me in ways I would not have thought possible.

You're telling me it's simple math. You take those two strokes you say it takes to reach the green, add the "two strokes on the putting green" (per the USGA definition of par) and

2 + 2 = 5.

I can't put my finger on it, but something doesn't seem to add up.

Well, that's because you missed the part where it's a par 5 on the card :lol:

 

[DavidSauls]

It's below zero, windy, and there's a foot of fresh snow on the ground.

...and it's the Hot Stove League for disc golf, so to speak.

 

[Steve West]

Well, that's because you missed the part where it's a par 5 on the card :lol:

Good point. I see it now.

2 + 2 +

= 5.

 

[PMantle]

It's way more complicated than that. The short version:
Course is designed to be an 18 hole par par 72 layout. The Tour has nothing to do with that. The equipment advances have led to increased distance through out the bag. Very few owners want to lengthen the courses. While what I said about reaching in two is true, there are still some tour pros who cannot. If any of those cannot, it's simply not a par 5. Vey few fans like seeing the courses changed from 72 to 70 or lower. Only the USGA does that and there are complaints every year.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

I couldn't help my notice all the talk about huge under par holes at Kapalua this week. So, I ran my formula.

All the par 5s should have been par 4.

If that had been the case, instead of 95% of rounds being under par, it would have been 50%.

Instead of averaging 4.62 under par, they would have averaged 0.62 under.

Instead of a winning score of -34 (8.5 per round) it would have been -18 (4.5 per round).

And, instead of only 7% of scores being bogey, it would have been 13%.

And it wouldn't have been half as fun to watch.

 

[Steve West]

It's way more complicated than that. The short version:
Course is designed to be an 18 hole par par 72 layout. The Tour has nothing to do with that. The equipment advances have led to increased distance through out the bag. Very few owners want to lengthen the courses. While what I said about reaching in two is true, there are still some tour pros who cannot. If any of those cannot, it's simply not a par 5. Vey few fans like seeing the courses changed from 72 to 70 or lower. Only the USGA does that and there are complaints every year.

Par at Kapalua was 73.

The player who came in last got at least one 4 or 3 on all par 5s. I think they all can reach it.

 

[txmxer]

Do you have to duck for the point to fly over your head, or does it pretty much do that already?

BTW, you are using two separate logical fallacies in your argument above: begging the question (of whether the data is applicable to the opinion expressed, which was the basis for my comment), and using a straw man argument (because no one has asserted that "doing math [equates to] arrogance").

Please think better next time.

Ouch. I'll not derail this thread on this subject, but someone's ego is over inflated, that is certain.

PS Crying logical fallacy does not make it so.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Par at Kapalua was 73.

The player who came in last got at least one 4 or 3 on all par 5s. I think they all can reach it.

It would be incredible if every player did not make a birdie or eagle on a par 5. I think you would find the exact same thing in a PDGA Champions event as well. Par 5's are scoring holes in golf of all kinds.

And par is set for scratch golfers in golf. These players are all 5-7 shots better than scratch, so they should beat par. Typical scratch golfer is not going to reach these holes in two. Reaching the green is also not the same thing as hitting the green in regulation.

 

[Steve West]

It would be incredible if every player did not make a birdie or eagle on a par 5. I think you would find the exact same thing in a PDGA Champions event as well. Par 5's are scoring holes in golf of all kinds.

And par is set for scratch golfers in golf. These players are all 5-7 shots better than scratch, so they should beat par. Typical scratch golfer is not going to reach these holes in two. Reaching the green is also not the same thing as hitting the green in regulation.

Define "scoring hole". Is that one where the definition of par is ignored to make the expected score birdie?

There were as many 4s on the par 5 #15 as there were on the second-easiest par 4 #14.

 

[oldmandiscer]

Define "scoring hole". Is that one where the definition of par is ignored to make the expected score birdie?

There were as many 4s on the par 5 #15 as there were on the second-easiest par 4 #14.

Not speaking for BGC but, When I said scoring hole, I meant it as a way that a player can make up 1-2 shots on the field. It gives some excitement with the risk reward aspect.

The enjoyable part is that the players have a better chance on that hole to make up shots or take the lead (scoring separation).

The problem comes when every hole is a scoring hole. Paul McBeth birdied exactly HALF of the holes he played last year. I guess that's where you come in, did he really "birdie" those holes or is the sport broken?

 

[PMantle]

Is that one where the definition of par is ignored .

Steve, that's every hole in golf, ever. We have been trying to tell you this for long time.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Define "scoring hole". Is that one where the definition of par is ignored to make the expected score birdie?

There were as many 4s on the par 5 #15 as there were on the second-easiest par 4 #14.

A well designed course will have some holes where making birdie is much easier than it is on other holes. This is to add excitement which you do not seem to understand. Make these holes par 4's and the average guy is going to decide not to book at Kapalua. who wants to go get beat up like that? The definition of par in golf is shots needed to get on to the green + 2 putts. The majority of the players who reached these par 5 greens, did not actually get on the green in 2, so for them the definition fits.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Golf is not disc golf.

 

[oldmandiscer]

Golf is not disc golf.

Then quit trying to be and using Par, Birdie, Eagle, Bogey, Drive, Chip, Bunker, Pin, Shot, Swing, and Putt.

 

[txmxer]

Then quit trying to be and using Par, Birdie, Eagle, Bogey, Drive, Chip, Bunker, Pin, Shot, Swing, and Putt.

Houck made a good point that DG borrowed those and other terms from golf--that ship has sailed and it is irrelevant to how DG moves forward.

 

[oldmandiscer]

Houck made a good point that DG borrowed those and other terms from golf--that ship has sailed and it is irrelevant to how DG moves forward.

Disc golf copied Golf straight up. Not borrowed at all. Forgot hole, pitch, fairway, etc....

The game is so similar that how you cannot say it is straight up copied is not being honest.

If you're going to copy golf, you might as well do it well though. I think that is the biggest point.

 

[Steve West]

Not speaking for BGC but, When I said scoring hole, I meant it as a way that a player can make up 1-2 shots on the field.
...

I have no problem with scoring holes which do that.

What I'm questioning is whether they are actually making up a shot on the field on a par 5 by getting a 4, when most of the scores are 4. Calling it a par 5 instead of a par 4 does not change whether they are making up a shot on the field. It only disguises that they are not.

So, we go back to it's a pretend-to-make-a-good-score hole.

 

[oldmandiscer]

I have no problem with scoring holes which do that.

What I'm questioning is whether they are actually making up a shot on the field on a par 5 by getting a 4, when most of the scores are 4. Calling it a par 5 instead of a par 4 does not change whether they are making up a shot on the field. It only disguises that they are not.

So, we go back to it's a pretend-to-make-a-good-score hole.

I'm talking about in real time. The players in front have already played the hole, so when the final group gets there they have a good chance to take a stroke by making a 4 or possibly even 3. That's the entertaining part of a Par 5.

 

[Orchestra]

But doesn't that make golf look silly? The scores are sooo far under par. No one will take it seriously!

;^)