Provisional Throws for Abandoned Throws

[cheesethin]

You can multiquote across pages... FYI

And now I've done it! - Cheers

 

[cheesethin]

As a corollary to the a̶b̶a̶n̶d̶o̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶l̶i̶e̶ potentially lost disc scenario, what if after the provisional throw (say it's really excellent and I park the basket), I simply don't bother to look for the disc, since I'm satisfied taking a four?

Am I in violation of a rule?

Yes, you are.

B. Provisional throws are used:
1. To save time. A player may declare a provisional throw any time:
a. The status of a disc cannot be readily determined because it may be lost,
out-of-bounds, or have missed a mandatory; and,
b. The group agrees that a provisional throw may save time.
The thrower then continues play from whichever of the two throws is deemed by
the group or an Official to have resulted in the correct lie.

The procedure is right there in the rule. If you don't even look for the disc then you can't have determined which of the two throws resulted in the correct lie.

805.03 Lost Disc
A. A disc is declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after
having arrived at the area where it is thought to be. Any player in the group or an
Official may begin the timing of the three minutes, and must inform the group
that the timing has begun.
B. All players in the group must assist in searching for the disc. Failure to do so is a
courtesy violation.

1. You throw your first tee shot - it looks like it might be lost.
2. You declare and throw a provisional from the tee to save time, with the agreement of the group - you park it.
3. You and the group walk to the area where your original shot maybe, and you look for it

4A. You find the disc (inbounds) - you play from there.
4B. Disc isn't found after 3mins, declared lost. You play from the provisional.

 

[cheesethin]

My primary point is, why isn't it clear and concise, not whether what you say is the correct way to play it (which I do in fact agree is the correct way to play it)? If you read the USGA rules it is very specific on how you play a provisional, at what point you are required to play from it, and at what point your are required to abandon it.

This is the problem with the provisional rules. They lack clarity.

Hey, I did go and look at the USGA rules to compare, and you are right, they spell stuff out much more. As to why that is the case, and as to why the Disc Golf rules don't, well I think you can probably guess at the reasons as well as I can. My quick thoughts in no particular order:

• Readability - think quick start guide vs maintenance manual
• Length - linked to Readability point, the ball golf rules are roughly 4x the length of the disc golf rules.
• Money at stake/Giving a **** - by the time disc golf has a million pound first place price, I'm guessing the rule book will be veeeeeeery precise & detailed.
• Age - disc golf compared to ball golf is young. Organised disc golf younger still (See Money point). The rule book will evolve/develop.

Personally, I don't have much negative emotion attached to the clarity or lack of it in the rule book. I understand it enough to have fun playing. (Full Disclosure - I actually enjoy working out rule sets etc. Give me a poorly phrased set of instruction to put an IKEA chest of drawers together and I'm happy)

And your question as to why the rules are like this can also be addressed to the rules committee themselves!! They have email!!!

 

[biscoe]

And your question as to why the rules are like this can also be addressed to the rules committee themselves!! They have email!!!

...and at least one of them regularly reads these threads.

 

[d11rok]

No, that can't be right. Provisionals are not always made from the previous lie, and when they're not, your interpretation sometimes can't be used.

Situation: Tight OB parallel to the fairway. Tee throw goes over the out of bounds line at a point 50 feet off the tee. Sails 400 feet over a hill and out of sight, so it may have curved back in-bounds.

Thrower goes to the potential last point in-bounds and says: "If the disc is found in-bounds, I'll play it there. If it stayed out of bounds, I'll use this provisional throw."

If the disc is lost, the thrower cannot use the provisional.

Interesting scenario Steve. I think your it requires a bit more detail, however. If there is compelling evidence that, if the the disc is not found in-bounds it is oob, then it is declared oob. If it is possible that the disc is in bounds but lost, then it is considered lost. Reference 806.02 c. That difference is for the group to decide.

Regardless if it is thought more so to be oob or lost, a provisional may still be taken. The scenarios are thus:
1) original disc found in-bounds. Play from disc
2) original disc found oob. Penalty stroke and appropriate mark. At this point after having thrown a provisional, the player knows the status of a rethrow, compared to someone who knew they went oob and didn't throw a provisional and has to decide to take it where it landed with remark versus rethrow. Would be interested to know the groups thought on this
3) original disc is likely in bounds but lost, play provisional. Steve, would you elaborate as to why this couldn't be done?

I also don't see why the provisional wouldn't be taken from the tee area each time, nor do I picture a scenario where it wouldn't be taken from the original lie.

 

[Steve West]

Interesting scenario Steve. I think your it requires a bit more detail, however. If there is compelling evidence that, if the the disc is not found in-bounds it is oob, then it is declared oob. If it is possible that the disc is in bounds but lost, then it is considered lost. Reference 806.02 c. That difference is for the group to decide.

Regardless if it is thought more so to be oob or lost, a provisional may still be taken. The scenarios are thus:
1) original disc found in-bounds. Play from disc
2) original disc found oob. Penalty stroke and appropriate mark. At this point after having thrown a provisional, the player knows the status of a rethrow, compared to someone who knew they went oob and didn't throw a provisional and has to decide to take it where it landed with remark versus rethrow. Would be interested to know the groups thought on this
3) original disc is likely in bounds but lost, play provisional. Steve, would you elaborate as to why this couldn't be done?

I also don't see why the provisional wouldn't be taken from the tee area each time, nor do I picture a scenario where it wouldn't be taken from the original lie.

Since the disc sailed out of sight, there would not be compelling evidence that it was OB if it cannot be found. Also, the provisional was taken in case the disc came back in bounds, so since there was a chance it was in-bounds, a lost disc should not be declared OB.

I didn't say the player could not take a provisional. Just that in this scenario, the player would have to discard the provisional throw if the disc was lost - because the player took a provisional at the point where the disc may have last been in bounds, which is not where the player would play if the first throw had resulted in a lost disc.

The point being that it is not possible that the rules force the player to always continue from the provisional throw whenever any of the three conditions are met.

Provisionals for time do not have to be taken at the tee, nor do they have to be a re-throw.

Another scenario:

A long hole has an OB lake in the second half of the fairway, and there is a forced DZ for discs that go OB in the lake. A player's second throw almost-maybe goes all the way across the lake. The player can make a provisional (3rd) throw at the drop zone and then the group can go look to see whether the disc is safe or not. If the disc is safe, the player must make the 3rd throw from there and disgard the provisional. If the disc is OB, the player must use the throw that was made from the drop zone. If the disc is lost, the player must go back to the previous lie and re-throw and disgard the provisional.

 

[DG_player]

Yes, you are.



The procedure is right there in the rule. If you don't even look for the disc then you can't have determined which of the two throws resulted in the correct lie.

1. You throw your first tee shot - it looks like it might be lost.
2. You declare and throw a provisional from the tee to save time, with the agreement of the group - you park it.
3. You and the group walk to the area where your original shot maybe, and you look for it

4A. You find the disc (inbounds) - you play from there.
4B. Disc isn't found after 3mins, declared lost. You play from the provisional.

Let's say my group just ignores all this, and I just walk up and hole out for a 4. What's the actual penalty I incur, a courtesy violation for failing to look for a lost disc?

 

[1978]

Since the disc sailed out of sight, there would not be compelling evidence that it was OB if it cannot be found. Also, the provisional was taken in case the disc came back in bounds, so since there was a chance it was in-bounds, a lost disc should not be declared OB.

I didn't say the player could not take a provisional. Just that in this scenario, the player would have to discard the provisional throw if the disc was lost - because the player took a provisional at the point where the disc may have last been in bounds, which is not where the player would play if the first throw had resulted in a lost disc.

The point being that it is not possible that the rules force the player to always continue from the provisional throw whenever any of the three conditions are met.

Provisionals for time do not have to be taken at the tee, nor do they have to be a re-throw.

Another scenario:

A long hole has an OB lake in the second half of the fairway, and there is a forced DZ for discs that go OB in the lake. A player's second throw almost-maybe goes all the way across the lake. The player can make a provisional (3rd) throw at the drop zone and then the group can go look to see whether the disc is safe or not. If the disc is safe, the player must make the 3rd throw from there and disgard the provisional. If the disc is OB, the player must use the throw that was made from the drop zone. If the disc is lost, the player must go back to the previous lie and re-throw and disgard the provisional.

I think you can take 2 provisionals...one if my disc is lost from last lie. 2 if my disc is OB. from last in bounds.

 

[cheesethin]

Let's say my group just ignores all this, and I just walk up and hole out for a 4. What's the actual penalty I incur, a courtesy violation for failing to look for a lost disc?

Interesting, not sure, my opinion is simply based on reading the rule book:

If you fail to look for the lost disc then you have never determined the correct lie. So some firm of misplay penalty would come in to play:

811 Misplay
E. A player who deliberately misplays the course to gain competitive advantage may be disqualified in accordance with*Section 3.03 of the Competition Manual.

Or possibly:

811 Misplay
F.3. Failure to Complete a Hole. The player has finished the round or thrown on a hole without having completed a previous hole. The score for the misplayed hole is the number of throws made, plus one for completing the hole, plus two penalty throws for the misplay. Intentionally failing to complete a hole constitutes withdrawal from competition.

Or maybe, played from an incorrect lie.

Any which way, you're getting penalty strokes and possibly disqualified for possible intentional misplay.
[emoji3][emoji3][emoji3]


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[sidewinder22]

Lost vs abandoned, what's the difference? It's scored and played exactly the same. Does the whole group actually have to search for 3 minutes when a disc sails off into an abyss before it could be called lost? You can't immediately call it lost to save everybody time and blood? Does an abandoned disc have to be found before it is called abandoned?

 

[cheesethin]

Lost vs abandoned, what's the difference? It's scored and played exactly the same. Does the whole group actually have to search for 3 minutes when a disc sails off into an abyss before it could be called lost? You can't immediately call it lost to save everybody time and blood? Does an abandoned disc have to be found before it is called abandoned?

I don't think there is a problem? You can call an abandoned throw as soon as the disc leaves your hand. No you don't have to look for an abandoned throw. It is just you voluntarily deciding to ditch that throw, take a penalty stroke and rethrow from the same lie.

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[Cgkdisc]

Lost vs abandoned, what's the difference? It's scored and played exactly the same. Does the whole group actually have to search for 3 minutes when a disc sails off into an abyss before it could be called lost? You can't immediately call it lost to save everybody time and blood? Does an abandoned disc have to be found before it is called abandoned?

If you're abandoning the shot from the tee, then there's no need for a provisional. It's just your next shot. If on the tee you say you might abandon a shot if it's lost, then you're really just saying you're taking a provisional in the event it's actually lost, not if you find it and now want to abandon the throw and use the provisional. If you do find it after throwing the provisional and decide you don't like where the original throw landed, you cannot now use the provisional. You must got back to the tee and throw your third shot.

 

[sidewinder22]

I don't think there is a problem? You can call an abandoned throw as soon as the disc leaves your hand. No you don't have to look for an abandoned throw. It is just you voluntarily deciding to ditch that throw, take a penalty stroke and rethrow from the same lie.

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If you're abandoning the shot from the tee, then there's no need for a provisional. It's just your next shot. If on the tee you say you might abandon a shot if it's lost, then you're really just saying you're taking a provisional in the event it's actually lost, not if you find it and now want to abandon the throw and use the provisional. If you do find it after throwing the provisional and decide you don't like where the original throw landed, you cannot now use the provisional. You must got back to the tee and throw your third shot.

Hmm, let me rephrase...

How would someone gain an advantage on a provisional abandonment when it would save time and the group agrees to the stated conditions of the provisional abandonment?

 

[DavidSauls]

Lost vs abandoned, what's the difference?

One is included in the provisional rule, one is not.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Hmm, let me rephrase...

How would someone gain an advantage on a provisional abandonment when it would save time and the group agrees to the stated conditions of the provisional abandonment?

This has been a long standing issue where players are not allowed to choose between the results of their two throws. Imagine a player is allowed to say "I'm throwing a provisional in case I don't like my shot." They park it or hit an ace on the provisional. Their disc is found but in a nasty position where they don't have a chance to pitch out and maybe not even get a 4. It has not been judged "sporting" to allow the player the choice to use the provisional with a known outcome. In addition, were this type of provisional allowed, why wouldn't you always throw a provisional on tougher terrain holes just in case? Talk about slowing down the game and trying to keep track of multiple shots.

 

[sidewinder22]

This has been a long standing issue where players are not allowed to choose between the results of their two throws. Imagine a player is allowed to say "I'm throwing a provisional in case I don't like my shot." They park it or hit an ace on the provisional. Their disc is found but in a nasty position where they don't have a chance to pitch out and maybe not even get a 4. It has not been judged "sporting" to allow the player the choice to use the provisional with a known outcome. In addition, were this type of provisional allowed, why wouldn't you always throw a provisional on tougher terrain holes just in case? Talk about slowing down the game and trying to keep track of multiple shots.

But the group has to agree to the reason of the provisional in the first place, and also the group determines the correct lie based on the original terms of the provisional, it is not the player's choice. The provisional could be much worse, but they would have to take it if the conditions of the OG throw were met.

 

[Cgkdisc]

But the group has to agree to the reason of the provisional in the first place, and also the group determines the correct lie based on the original terms of the provisional, it is not the player's choice. The provisional could be much worse, but they would have to take it if the conditions of the OG throw were met.

You seem to be missing the fact that an Abandoned throw has to be a choice at the tee (or current lie) and then make another throw. It can not / should not be made in advance because it's simply your next throw, not a provisional. There are no conditions where an abandon decision can be made with a provisional throw already made with the new potential lie known. Player must go back and make their next throw if they decide to abandon.

 

[sidewinder22]

You seem to be missing the fact that an Abandoned throw has to be a choice at the tee (or current lie) and then make another throw. It can not / should not be made in advance because it's simply your next throw, not a provisional. There are no conditions where an abandon decision can be made with a provisional throw already made with the new potential lie known. Player must go back and make their next throw if they decide to abandon.

Umm my question was hypothetical.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Umm my question was hypothetical.

Hypothetically, players might be able to say, "I'll use my first provisional if my disc landed in the woods on the right side of the fairway. My second provisional would be used if my disc lands in the woods on the left side."

 

[DavidSauls]

But the group has to agree to the reason of the provisional in the first place, and also the group determines the correct lie based on the original terms of the provisional, it is not the player's choice. The provisional could be much worse, but they would have to take it if the conditions of the OG throw were met.

If the rules allowed such a thing---which they clearly don't---they would be tough to handle.

So you make a "conditional" throw: "If it goes in the woods on the right, I'll abandon it." So how well defined is the boundary of those woods? What about a disc that's a foot into them, or a foot outside of them, or how do you even tell if the edge of the woods is an uneven line of trees? Is the thrower going to outline in detail exactly what lie will be abandoned, and what not?

"Lost" is fact; either it was found before the 3 minutes expired, or it wasn't. "OB" is fact; either it's on the wrong side of the OB line, or it's not. The "I'm going to abandon it" zone has a very blurry line. And that's if it's woods---what if it's the wrong side of a hill? Or not far enough? Or in the area behind a large obstacle?

The Rules Committee has shown wisdom in not providing this option.