Provisional Throws for Abandoned Throws

[Steve West]

I think you can take 2 provisionals...one if my disc is lost from last lie. 2 if my disc is OB. from last in bounds.

You could. That might be pushing the "save time" aspect.

 

[sidewinder22]

Hypothetically, players might be able to say, "I'll use my first provisional if my disc landed in the woods on the right side of the fairway. My second provisional would be used if my disc lands in the woods on the left side."

If the rules allowed such a thing---which they clearly don't---they would be tough to handle.

So you make a "conditional" throw: "If it goes in the woods on the right, I'll abandon it." So how well defined is the boundary of those woods? What about a disc that's a foot into them, or a foot outside of them, or how do you even tell if the edge of the woods is an uneven line of trees? Is the thrower going to outline in detail exactly what lie will be abandoned, and what not?

"Lost" is fact; either it was found before the 3 minutes expired, or it wasn't. "OB" is fact; either it's on the wrong side of the OB line, or it's not. The "I'm going to abandon it" zone has a very blurry line. And that's if it's woods---what if it's the wrong side of a hill? Or not far enough? Or in the area behind a large obstacle?

The Rules Committee has shown wisdom in not providing this option.

That's not how it would work at all. You couldn't throw a conditional shot. You could only declare after the first shot the unlikely condition that you would accept that lie after you find it, like in the OP's case maybe it somehow got lucky and kicked over to the left side or back into a blind fairway or putting green, there's no way they wouldn't take that lie in that rare case. Otherwise the provisional lie must be taken or is the correct lie, regardless of how good or bad that provisional throw was and would be throwing 4 from the provisional lie instead of 2 from the first lie. The only condition of the provisional throw is determined by the status of the first lie, you can't say I'm only taking the provisional lie if it lands here.

Conditions of a provisional for probable abandonment would require that the status of the disc is unknown and is possibly lost, and group agrees it might save time and would be fair.

 

[Steve West]

Hmm, let me rephrase...

How would someone gain an advantage on a provisional abandonment when it would save time and the group agrees to the stated conditions of the provisional abandonment?

If the conditions could be specified clearly enough and objectively enough, there would be no advantage.

Others have talked about the objectivity issue, so I won't repeat that concern.

Another thing to consider is that it's good when a rule still gets players to play correctly even if they only have a fuzzy notion of the actual rule.

If a wider range of agreed-to conditions were allowed, players might misunderstand that to mean they can use conditions like: "If I can score better from my provisional, I'll use it." It might further morph into a general misunderstanding that you can basically play best throw with yourself.

Recall how many players would tell you that you can't call any violations on yourself last year? That was a result of inflation of one exception to calling one rule on yourself. The resulting overgrown general misunderstanding was a big reason to get rid of that little exception.

 

[DavidSauls]

That's not how it would work at all. You couldn't throw a conditional shot. You could only declare after the first shot the unlikely condition that you would accept that lie after you find it, like in the OP's case maybe it somehow got lucky and kicked over to the left side or back into a blind fairway or putting green, there's no way they wouldn't take that lie in that rare case. Otherwise the provisional lie must be taken or is the correct lie, regardless of how good or bad that provisional throw was and would be throwing 4 from the provisional lie instead of 2 from the first lie. The only condition of the provisional throw is determined by the status of the first lie, you can't say I'm only taking the provisional lie if it lands here.

Conditions of a provisional for probable abandonment would require that the status of the disc is unknown and is possibly lost, and group agrees it might save time and would be fair.

Sorry, I don't think I understand what you're saying.

The only condition of the provisional throw is determined by the status of the first lie...

You could only declare after the first shot the unlikely condition that you would accept that lie after you find it, like in the OP's case maybe it somehow got lucky and kicked over to the left side or back into a blind fairway or putting green....


How is that not either giving the thrower the option to decide whether to take the lie from the initial throw, or take the known lie of the provisional throw,

--OR--

Not conditional, subject to whether the disc came to rest where the thrower said he'd abandon it, or didn't come to rest there? (If this is the case, we're back to the vaguely-defined "abandon zone")

 

[Steve West]

If he's thinking like I'm thinking, the decision about whether to use the provisional would be made before the provisional throw. (Just as in the current rules.) He's saying the trigger condition could be something other than OB/lost/missed.

For example, the cattails on the left side this hole are not OB. Say I threw over them and couldn't see whether my disc landed beyond them or in them. If I didn't want to squish around in there looking for my disc, I could say "If we don't find that throw on the short grass, I'll abandon it." Then, throw my provisional.

 

[cheesethin]

If the conditions could be specified clearly enough and objectively enough, there would be no advantage.

Others have talked about the objectivity issue, so I won't repeat that concern.

Another thing to consider is that it's good when a rule still gets players to play correctly even if they only have a fuzzy notion of the actual rule.

If a wider range of agreed-to conditions were allowed, players might misunderstand that to mean they can use conditions like: "If I can score better from my provisional, I'll use it." It might further morph into a general misunderstanding that you can basically play best throw with yourself.

Recall how many players would tell you that you can't call any violations on yourself last year? That was a result of inflation of one exception to calling one rule on yourself. The resulting overgrown general misunderstanding was a big reason to get rid of that little exception.

Pretty much this.

My guess would be that the gain from saving time with player defined conditions is out weighed by the increased confusion/misunderstanding as to what the rule actually is. And out weighed by the arguements that would follow after the provisional had been thrown and the original lie inspected.

"Oh I didn't mean X, Y, Z, no I meant if it landed X AND Y or Z. Of course I wouldn't mean Z without W also being true, that goes without saying....... Blah blah blah.

In theory, yes. In practice, probably no.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[DavidSauls]

If he's thinking like I'm thinking, the decision about whether to use the provisional would be made before the provisional throw. (Just as in the current rules.) He's saying the trigger condition could be something other than OB/lost/missed.

For example, the cattails on the left side this hole are not OB. Say I threw over them and couldn't see whether my disc landed beyond them or in them. If I didn't want to squish around in there looking for my disc, I could say "If we don't find that throw on the short grass, I'll abandon it." Then, throw my provisional.

That particular hazard would be one of the easier ones to apply such a rule to. With some inevitable debate if the disc is halfway in the cattails, or 6" in the cattails. There being no clear line.

Same hole, same hypothetical rule, player makes the conditional for the woods on the right side, even harder to make borderline calls. Much greater chance that, with the player knowing where the provisional lies, he argues that "this is not really in the woods" or "this is on the edge, but it's what I meant by in the woods".

 

[sidewinder22]

That particular hazard would be one of the easier ones to apply such a rule to. With some inevitable debate if the disc is halfway in the cattails, or 6" in the cattails. There being no clear line.

Same hole, same hypothetical rule, player makes the conditional for the woods on the right side, even harder to make borderline calls. Much greater chance that, with the player knowing where the provisional lies, he argues that "this is not really in the woods" or "this is on the edge, but it's what I meant by in the woods".

Group would still have to agree for the provisional and can deny it based on too vague conditions.

 

[DavidSauls]

Group would still have to agree for the provisional and can deny it based on too vague conditions.

Deny it, at the time the provisional is requested, before it's thrown? Or when the first throw is located?

 

[sidewinder22]

Deny it, at the time the provisional is requested, before it's thrown? Or when the first throw is located?

At time of request.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Since the masters cup is a DeLa right now this comes up in casual and semi-casual and competitive rounds on a few of the holes all the time and especially #27

Disc hit trees short and left. Is it caught in the trees? Deep in Jail? Kick OB? Sail into the parking lot? Good Tree Kick and chance at Birdie? To walk down and determine if you are in jail or not then all the way back up to 27's Tee where there is a group waiting at fading day light for their Teeshots... At that course same as Hole 12 depending on pin and hole... I think 15 I think. So many of those blind landing zones that you don't know until you get there if it went OB/Lost or looking at a possible 5 or... good skip and birdie shot.

Provisional if i'm in Jail or OB or above 2 meters in a tree.

I don't think anyone in this thread has been trying to suggest a provisional could be used as a Cali rule.

 

[chevis]

actually it's in the title of the thread. not allowed now by the rules, but maybe it should be; it's still a stroke to re-tee (abandoned throw), so i wouldn't think it would be abused too much, and would save a lot of time walking back to the tee.

 

[krupicka]

Provisional if i'm in Jail or OB or above 2 meters in a tree.

Define jail. A player should not have the choice between two throws. That is the crux of the matter.

 

[sidewinder22]

Define jail. A player should not have the choice between two throws. That is the crux of the matter.

Player doesn't have a choice. The group decides the correct lie. The provisional abandoned throw would only not be used in rare cases where the shot got lucky, but is unknown at the time of the provisional.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Define jail. A player should not have the choice between two throws. That is the crux of the matter.

Its not so much a choice between two throws, as it is an if:then scenario that can be announced on the Teepad. Its not a a Cali throw where choosing the better lie. My home course there would only be a few cases I could see this ever coming up. I wouldn't re-tee or even throw a provisional for many of the OB cases because the look from OB is not so bad so with a perfect (non ace) re-tee, best case is a 4 and even with a bad OB can still be looking at a really long but still more likely 3 than hitting it from the Tee.
My home course and several of the courses near me have blind holes with extreme roll away potential, and sometimes like late spring lots of high grass and weeds, the amount of time looking for them sucks AND at a certain point you can pretty much know you are looking at a 5 or worse. So rather than hunt and hunt and hunt and then find it way further away than you could possible think, declare a re-tee, wouldn't it seem to make sense to say. "Provisional if that disc rolled past the teepad for hole #5 this would be my re-tee shot". Then the group could enforce that here is your disc next to the teepad, by your declaration that is your lie, or wow way down there take the provisional.

Jail on hole 27 at Dela is similar basically you can get tree kicks back towards #24's tee and be looking at 2 just to get out of the trees and a long putt from there. It would take some knowledge of the grove by the card but declaring something specific as the either/or scenario.

I'm not sure how common or abusable this would be. I see some after the fact arguments if it weren't declared prior, and there is just as much shank possibility in the re-tee as there normally would be, it would suck but could absolutely see the possibility of declaring a provisional for abandon throw and then shanking worse, just like walking all the way back to the tee as it would be required now.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think you are overlooking the choice to take optional relief straight back on the line of play for these jail situations rather than go back to the tee.

 

[Steve West]

That particular hazard would be one of the easier ones to apply such a rule to. With some inevitable debate if the disc is halfway in the cattails, or 6" in the cattails. There being no clear line.

Same hole, same hypothetical rule, player makes the conditional for the woods on the right side, even harder to make borderline calls. Much greater chance that, with the player knowing where the provisional lies, he argues that "this is not really in the woods" or "this is on the edge, but it's what I meant by in the woods".

If we were to try to make this work, the bias would need to be toward using the original throw. The group would need to be convinced the condition was met.

That kind of goes against the grain of usually leaning toward a better result for the thrower, so that might not turn out to be how it becomes enforced out in the field.

 

[DavidSauls]

Seems like this would be substituting the player's choice between two shots, with the group's. The group, knowing where the provisional lies, might be biased, one way or the other, on shots in the gray area between clearly in the declared abandon zone, and not.

We have issues with ill-defined OB. An even less-defined abandon zone would be worse.

Luckily, though worse, it would be rare. I see very few abandoned lies, and some of them are putts that rolled off to a really bad spot. Nothing that a provisional would save time on. I can't recall the last time I saw someone decide a drive was so bad that they abandoned it, in favor of a stroke and rethrow.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

I see very few abandoned lies, and some of them are putts that rolled off to a really bad spot. Nothing that a provisional would save time on. I can't recall the last time I saw someone decide a drive was so bad that they abandoned it, in favor of a stroke and rethrow.

I think this is all true, and even more rare is this whole case where you don't see where the disc landed. The decision to re-tee is basically only made if you really really believe you are saving a stroke vs the penalty to re-tee AND believe you can make a better drive. I've had 1 time I hit a tree and had a roll that just kept going and going and going and I was standing there on the tee looking at my disc and there was no question. It came to rest further from the pin than the teebox and had several trees I was not going to be getting around. A 5 from that point was going to be a stretch. Most shanked drives are not so bad you won't at least be able to scramble and be a safer +1 than a re-tee.
BUT
This specific question came up in the OP that I see has at least some merit in that i've seen players either re-tee after looking and looking and finally finding their disc in a spot it is silly to try and play from, or as in the OP a spot it you knew it landed would take the re-tee, especially if the light is fading and trying to get the round completed.

As far as optional relief the exact holes that come to mind in my scenarios straight back optional relief is either FURTHER down hill, and maybe into a canyon like ?15? at DeLa, or the distance back I'm not sure it is any better a choice than the tee box... certainly a bit closer but not much of a shot. The picture with the cat tails maybe as long as straight back doesn't put you in water.

 

[sidewinder22]

If we were to try to make this work, the bias would need to be toward using the original throw. The group would need to be convinced the condition was met.

That kind of goes against the grain of usually leaning toward a better result for the thrower, so that might not turn out to be how it becomes enforced out in the field.

I was thinking it should be biased heavily toward the provisional throw. This would reduce the number of provisionals for abandonment and make it more risky/less likely to use it. It's basically an abandoned throw, but if your original lie somehow got lucky then you could still use the original throw and disregard the provisional.