Random Doubles Feedback Please

[birdie_workshop]

Hello,

I'm about to start a weekly random doubles event at a course in my area.
Same course every week, relatively long and open, minimal OB.
I would like to solicit feedback on a couple of things.

EVENT DESCRIPTION:
Everyone is welcome (all ages and skill-sets), however, I would like to cater slightly to more serious/experienced players. The event will take place on Wednesday evenings (after work) racing to finish before dark.

No CTPs
No Tags
No Ace-Pool
$10 per person buy-in ($20 per team)

<5 teams: Winning team takes all
5-10 teams: 2nd place team gets there money back
>10 teams: 3rd place team gets there money back (70/30 split between 1st and 2nd).

Example:
11 teams (22 people) = $220
3rd place - money back = $20
2nd place - thirty percent = $60
1st place - seventy percent = $140

Questions:
a) What is good about this format, would you want to play?
b) What sucks about this format, what would you change?
c) Should Cali get 2 throws on every shot (drive, upshot, putt)?
d) Should Cali have to pay double to get FULL payout?
e) Other thoughts or suggestions?

Thank you!

 

[etdefender19]

c)
The way our local, pretty laid-back, weekly does it is that you get two shots at any ONE of those shots each hole, not on each shot on every hole.

 

[Future_Primitive]

Fine with no buy in CTP's (okay with them if somebody donates disc/swag and its free to all) as they can be a bit of a pain. Same goes for tags as they tend to add more time and effort to running the league. I would be okay adding an ace pool as they grow you can draw in more players with it. But if you dont want to keep track of the ace pot and carry cash for it with you then no ace pool is fine.

Generally speaking, not a fan of catering to one group as you could be making your player pool smaller before you even begin. Not being a great player myself I would probably pass on a $10 buy in that only pays 3 spots regardless of a larger turnout. Around here $5.00 buy in seems to be the sweet spot for good turnout. Our League TD also has a sliding scale for payouts so if we draw 30-40 players we pay out more spots than just top 3.

Just curious as I have some friends out in Colorado and they also do the Cali 2 shots on every shot thing. While here in Michigan its almost always 1 extra Cali shot per hole. Two shots on every shot would make Cali very desirable especially for the best players.

For Cali here if we end up with odd number of players players can opt in to the Cali flip and pay the buy in amount again if they get Cali. However if nobody wants to be Cali and it is forced on someone via draw/flip then it is doesnt cost them an additional buy in.

 

[Sethamphetamine]

I would pay out more spots. Easy way to do ace pool is make the buy in like 6 bucks and have 5 for the payout and one from everyone for ace pool. Rolls over if not hit. Cali is one shot I suppose, but then I'd say it's harder to win and thus would warrant full payout.

 

[JC17393]

c)
The way our local, pretty laid-back, weekly does it is that you get two shots at any ONE of those shots each hole, not on each shot on every hole.

I agree with this. Cali = one extra throw per hole, not per lie.

Some leagues I've seen will offer the solo player the option...regular cali or, for double his/her entry (so a full team entry), they get the "super" cali of getting an extra throw at every lie. If they want to play as if they're a full two-person team, they should be paying the same as an actual two-person team. Regardless of what they choose, they get full payout for whatever place they might end up, keeping it simpler for the TD.


As for the set-up overall...with no frills like CTP or ace and a top heavy payout (top 20%), you're definitely going to attract a higher-skilled crowd which will limit how many players you get. If that's your intent, no big deal. But I think there are "serious/experienced" players who aren't necessarily high-skill (Masters, Intermediate, maybe some Advanced) who might be loathe to come too often, especially if the make-up of your regular attendees is such that you're guaranteed to get 3-4 high caliber teams each week. Why donate $10 week after week on the off-chance that you draw a partner who can carry you past the uber-team(s) of the week?

 

[Sethamphetamine]

Another thing to combat the same people winning over and over is to keep track of wins and handicap strokes after a certain amount. 1st place=3 points, 2nd=2, etc and a certain amount of points eventually leads to +1 stroke for your round.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

$10 a person is a bit pricey IMO
Ace pot could be optional
Cali player gets one extra shot PER HOLE. Up to you as to whether Cali player is forced to use the second shot.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

This is what we use for $5 doubles:

# 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
7 or less winner takes all
8 $30 $10
9 $35 $10
10 $40 $10
11 $40 $15
12 $40 $20
13 $40 $20 $5
14 $40 $20 $10
15 $40 $25 $10
16 $40 $30 $10
17 $40 $30 $15
18 $40 $30 $20
19 $40 $30 $20 $5
20 $40 $30 $20 $10
21 $45 $30 $20 $10
22 $50 $30 $20 $10
23 $50 $35 $20 $10
24 $50 $40 $20 $10
25 $50 $40 $25 $10
26 $50 $40 $30 $10
27 $50 $40 $30 $15
28 $50 $40 $30 $20
29 $50 $40 $30 $20 $5
30 $50 $40 $30 $20 $10
31 $55 $40 $30 $20 $10
32 $60 $40 $30 $20 $10
33 $60 $45 $30 $20 $10
34 $60 $50 $30 $20 $10
35 $60 $50 $35 $20 $10
36 $60 $50 $40 $20 $10
37 $60 $50 $40 $25 $10
38 $60 $50 $40 $30 $10
39 $60 $50 $40 $30 $15
40 $60 $50 $40 $30 $20
41 $60 $50 $40 $30 $20 $5
42 $60 $50 $40 $30 $20 $10

 

[Shamis]

I try to pay out 30% of the teams, round down. And CTP's add a little hassle, but they make it much more enticing for newer players that may have no chance of winning, but could still randomly park a hole.

 

[Improbably]

Modified Cali

Need:

No system can fully correct for having an odd number of participants in random doubles. The goal of Modified Cali is to bring the standard Cali (one extra throw per hole) system one step closer to correcting for an odd number of participants.

Implementation:

In Modified Cali the player is permitted one re-throw on their first OR second shot. Then two throws on their third and each subsequent shot till completing the hole.

Contrast with standard Cali:

The reason for standard Cali as opposed to simply letting the single take two throws for every shot is to limit best players from effectively being a team of two best players. Standard Cali is in practical terms a method for limiting best players. Most participants of lesser skill are disadvantaged by the system.

Dubs in general:

Dubs is a birdie game. More aggressive shots that usual are often taken because the bad ones can be discarded and true consequences only apply when both team members incur them.

Results of modified Cali:

The best players chasing birdies on every hole gain little advantage above standard Cali. If a two is made the player has completed the hole without utilizing any of the advantage modified Cali provides.

The players of lesser skill who are typically punished by being Cali now have extra opportunity to make the 3 or the 4.

There are two dimensions to this advantage.
-The less skilled player may remain competitive for second or third cash if it's available.
-The less skilled player who does not score well enough to be competitive is typically able to avoid an "embarrassingly high" score.

Personal note:

I'm all for making disc golfers accept the misery of their own failure BUT when failure is so great they become disinclined to attend again, everyone loses out.

 

[BuzzzChief]

No CTPs
No Tags
No Ace Pool
No Beginners
No Fun Allowed

IMO a successful doubles league is less about strict competition, and more about a good time and social atmosphere. It's a great way for less experienced players to learn from good ones, to have a shot at winning, and to play some DG without taking it too seriously. That's what singles leagues and tournaments are for.

I think if you make it $10 buy-in and skew towards winner-take-all, your attendance will plummet after a couple weeks. As mentioned already, $5 buy-in is probably the sweet spot. If you offer an optional ace pot or CTP, most/all people will join them.

 

[cheesethin]

Don't make last pay out spot just break even. Give them a sense of a win even if it is minimal. Buy in 5, last spot 10. That kind of thing. It doesn't significantly impact the pay out for the higher places. But has a big emotional/ego/bragging rights over your mates impact compared to break even, 'well at least I didn't lose money'.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[DavidSauls]

$10 would be a high pay-in around here; $5 (or $6, with ace pool) is more like it.

Ace pools are extremely popular; I wouldn't forego it unless the course has few aceable holes.

One effect of making it relatively high-stakes (higher than normal entry, steep payout) is more bitching about the random draw. Some good players are going to grumble when they draw a weak one, particularly if it happens about 4 weeks in a row. Others are going to grumble if the two top players draw each other.

 

[Kainbelmont1]

Random Draw Doubles is awful and should be avoided at all cost.

 

[BuiltTooLong]

Unless you have a very large contingent of players, $10 is just too much for a weekly and will keep players away.

Have an OPTIONAL $1 Ace fund. $5 entry, $1 ace fund. Just keep an envelope or something in your car to store the Ace pot.

Cali rules have shifted from 1 to 2 back to 1 cali stroke several times in our league. I personally think 1 stroke is probably a little more fair for the entire field, otherwise I do like the rule of paying an extra $5 to get the 2 shots on every lie.

 

[swed]

We play a lot of doubles in Milwaukee, mainly a group of friends. $10 or $20 per person. No extra shots needed (cali,midwest etc.). The odd person gets to play either midwest or cali depending on skill level. Usually we get 15-25 plays on a given weekend. More fun than playing a tourney, imo. Payout is top heavy. Under 10 people, winners take all. 10-15 people pays top 2 groups. Over 20 people we pay usually 3 or 4 groups.

 

[birdie_workshop]

We play a lot of doubles in Milwaukee, mainly a group of friends. $10 or $20 per person. No extra shots needed (cali,midwest etc.). The odd person gets to play either midwest or cali depending on skill level. Usually we get 15-25 plays on a given weekend. More fun than playing a tourney, imo. Payout is top heavy. Under 10 people, winners take all. 10-15 people pays top 2 groups. Over 20 people we pay usually 3 or 4 groups.

Thank you for the input! This sounds very close to what I'm looking to do.

 

[glassila]

This is what I am looking at looking at on my course this year.

Random partner draw from 6:00-6:10pm. Everyone goes out at 6:15pm in groups of 2 or 3 teams.
Players divided by skill level into Group A or Group B
Group A player partners with a Group B player

$5 per person, 18 holes, best shot (scramble)
If 5 or fewer teams pay 1 place, If 6-11 teams pay 2 places, If 12 or more teams pay 3 places.

If there is an odd number of players, 1 player will play "Cali".
Group A Cali player gets 1 extra throw per hole from any lie.
Group B Cali player gets 2 extra throws per hole from any lie.
An ace from a regular tee is an ace whether it is the Cali player's first or second shot from that tee.
The Cali player only gets one throw from each "ace" tee.
The Cali player will be considered a team, but only pays $5.

$1.00 – optional ace pool
Since there are only a few ace holes at Calumet, there will be be 5 "ace" tees on the course each week.
The ace tees will be marked with flags and will change each week.
After teeing off from the regular tee, players in the ace pool will get one throw from each ace tee which will be 150-250 feet.

An ace from a regular tee or an ace tee counts for the Ace Pool.
The throw from the "ace tee" cannot be used for your score.

Payout:
10 players/5 teams or less = $10 to course fund, remaining amount to winner
11 players $55 (5 teams + cali) = 1st place $30, 2nd place $15, $10 to course fund
12 players $60 (6 teams) = 1st place $30, 2nd place $20, $10 to course fund
13 players $65 (6 teams + cali) = 1st place $35, 2nd place $20, $10 to course fund
14 players $70 (7 teams) = 1st place $40, 2nd place $20, $10 to course fund
15 players $75 (7 teams + cali) = 1st place $40, 2nd place $25, $10 to course fund
16 players $80 (8 teams) = 1st place $45, 2nd place $25, $10 to course fund
17 players $85 (8 teams + cali) = 1st place $50, 2nd place $25, $10 to course fund
18 players $90 (9 teams) = 1st place $50, 2nd place $30, $10 to course fund
19 players $95 (9 teams + cali) = 1st place $55, 2nd place $30, $10 to course fund
20 players $100 (10 teams) = 1st place $60, 2nd place $30, $10 to course fund
21 players $105 (10 teams + cali): 1st place $65, 2nd place $30, $10 to course fund
22 players $110 (11 teams): 1st place $65, 2nd place $35, $10 to course fund
23 players $115 (11 teams + cali): 1st place $50, 2nd place $30, 3rd place $20, $15 to fund
24 players $120 (12 teams): 1st place $55, 2nd place $30, 3rd place $20, $15 to fund
25 players $125 (12 teams + cali): 1st place $60, 2nd place $30, 3rd place $20, $15 to fund
26 players $130 (13 teams): 1st place $60, 2nd place $35, 3rd place $20, $15 to fund