Rules Question

[DiscJunkie]

There's a lot of flowing casual water at my home course today. It made me think of a scenario that is possible (admittedly unlikely).
What's the ruling?
A player in a tournament throws a drive and the disc lands bottom-up in a flowing puddle of casual water. Heavy recent rains have caused a normally dry depression to fill with water and begin draining to a ditch. It floats for several minutes before coming to rest at the entrance to the ditch, still not OB.
Where does he take his throw?
...at the point that it entered casual water?
...at the point where he grabs it to stop its progress?
...at the point where it stops moving?
...or does he have options, depending on what advantage he may gain or lose by the direction of the disc, i.e. closer to or farther from the hole?

What's the ruling??

 

[_.-Dut-._]

Last tourny I went to they announced that you play it where it went in, regardless to where it comes to rest with the stream carrying it.

Dunno if thats official rule or just what our TD decided.

 

[bikinjack]

IDK what the official rule would be, but I think it would be where it came to rest first. Where ever that was.

 

[DiscJunkie]

Two responses, two answers.
Let's see who else chimes in...

 

[U_NICED_ME]

Good question. When you deal with casual relief, it's usually from the lie. Only for an OB is the rule clearly stated, play from the point it crosses the OB line.

But, I also tried to think of times a disc would move in regular play, which in this case, is what we are dealing with. If your disc gets stuck in a tree on your drive, and as you are walking to it, it falls out and rolls down a hill. You have to play from it's lie, you wouldn't play from the point directly below the tree where it was stuck.

I would consider the disc a victim of "elements", no different than wind.

My vote is where the disc came to rest.

 

[StudentDriver]

Depends on tournament I suppose

I've played in a tourney recently at a heavily flooded course. For a lie in casual water we usually play the lie as where the disc comes to rest and then throw from the nearest dry point along the line of play behind the lie. Sometimes that might be like 40 feet back, in which case we might just say play from a spot perpendicular from the line of play instead. Haven't encountered it in a PDGA yet.

 

[ejvogie]

I'm not gonna look up the actual rule because I'm too lazy , but the lie is where the disc stopped moving of it's own accord and was pushed only by the water.

 

[U_NICED_ME]

Gosh, who can venture to answer that though? Yea, I saw it go in, but I don't know what it did after it was below ground level, you wouldn't possibly know when the water started pushing it.

But, that is a very good point, you could be right.

 

[solomon.trenton]

whether or not it is a PDGA event it's normally the TD's discrection. But that's only true if water isnt normally there and its not normally OB. But if its a long way away from the tee then i would guess most TD say that where youre disc ends up because there isnt any interpretation of that where you can have 4 different views of where it went in.

 

[Roc1Time]

I played the Paul Giles a couple of years ago and the rule was where it went in. If you went to where it stopped you would be throwing from another county at times. It rained so hard that weekend that that rule came into play a bunch

 

[DavidSauls]

The disc is considered having stopped and come to rest when it is not moving by its own momentum, but just the action of the wind and water. So, at the point it landed in the puddle of flowing water, the lie is there.

Since the water is casual, the lie could be removed to dry land, straight back on a line from the basket. "Where it went in" does not apply to casual hazards, just O.B.

Of course, this may be hard to judgel if the casual flowing water is out of sight from the original throw.

 

[DavidSauls]

Here's a "flowing water" scenario I had happen in casual play, that would have been trouble in a tournament.

Stoney Hill #12, from drop zone, I throw my putter badly, and land in the very small creek running 20' in front of the basket. When we get there its seems to have disappeared; apparently it landed upside down, transformed into a boat, and slowly floated into the pipe running under the road.

So I waited several minutes at the other end for it to cruise out. I dared not reach a stick in, for fear of capsizing it and stranding it mid-pipe. Had it been a tournament, even if I declared it as a "search for lost disc" it would have exceeded the time limit, and I would have been stroked---or, had to finish the round without my putter!

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

I would think that it could be ruled similar to a disc that lands in a tree but falls before the player gets there to mark it.

I looked into the Interference rules and that doesn't say anything about flowing casual water. It's not considered an "intentional" moving of the lie. If it moves while you're walking toward it, I'd think that you'd mark it once it stops(same as a lie above ground). If you were to arrive at the disc and wait excessively for the disc to move closer to the pin, THAT may be called as a courtesy violation(801.03 Excessive Time)

803.07 Interference
A. A thrown disc that hits another player, spectator, or animal shall be played where it comes
to rest. A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked
as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by a majority of the group or an
official. Alternatively, for intentional interference only, the thrower has the option of taking a re-throw. Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight
or path of a disc could easily occur. The away player may require other players to mark their
lies or move their equipment before making a throw if the player believes that either could
interfere with his or her throw.

 

[Cgkdisc]

803.03 Marking the Lie
F. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water.

Mark the lie where the disc actually landed in the casual water to the best the group can estimate that location. Player can play it from that point in the casual water or get relief back on the line of play away from the basket up to 5m. If that still does not get you out of the water and the TD hasn't specified that players can take extended relief from water in the gully, then you can take an unplayable lie penalty and go back up to 5 more meters or replay from the previous lie.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

I missed that........... you are correct. :hfive:

 

[Vegan Ray]

What if a nearby glycerin manufacturing facility has a breach & one's disc lands in a flowing rivulet of glycerin? Mark it where it "is floating or is moving only by the action of" the glycerin or where it finally comes to rest?

 

[John Rock]

Let's not forget the other option: Play it from in the water (glycerin).

 

[bikinjack]

What if a squirrel makes off with it?

 

[Vegan Ray]

803.07A:

A thrown disc that hits another player, spectator, or animal shall be played where it comes
to rest.

803.07B:

If a disc at rest on the playing surface or supported by the target is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. If a marker disc is moved, the marker disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official.

In short, if the squirrel catches the disc while it is moving & takes off, you play it where he finally drops it. If he picks up the disc after it has come to rest, you replace it.

 

[Cgkdisc]

In short, if the squirrel catches the disc while it is moving & takes off, you play it where he finally drops it.

I'm thinking you could call "intentional interference" and even get to rethrow if you choose.

803.07 Interference
A. A thrown disc that hits another player, spectator, or animal shall be played where it comes to rest. A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. Alternatively, for intentional interference only, the thrower has the option of taking a re-throw.