Shoulder timing

[Twistedhorse]

Is the shoulder movement that Feldberg shows in the video under something to focus on in regards to the topic of this thread?

And, isn't the closed shoulder drill encouraging the shoulders to open 180 degrees instead of 90 degrees? I have been doing it wrong if not. Haven't noticed before now that the shoulders should not open more before the disc is in the air. Something I have to practice.




https://youtu.be/3sxw8ix0CYs?t=1655

Thanks for this video! Eye-opening

 

[Arezaki]

Thanks for this video! Eye-opening

I don't know. SW said in another thread that it was a bad demo. His arm/disc is so far back that he have to be rounding. What I have noticed lately is that the arm/disc should move forward before the torso turn fully (e.g.: Tanner's "no consequence" video) to get in the power pocket. You are rounding if not.

 

[Arezaki]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is more correct that the forearm/disc should move a little towards the chest, while the upper arm is the part that should lag behind, storing energy for the hit.

 

[UhhNegative]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is more correct that the forearm/disc should move a little towards the chest, while the upper arm is the part that should lag behind, storing energy for the hit.

The forearm/disc moving towards the chest is the lag (caused by bending of the elbow). The upper arm doesn't do much lagging at all, it stays mostly at the same angle relative to the shoulders.

 

[ToddBenji2021]

The forearm/disc moving towards the chest is the lag (caused by bending of the elbow). The upper arm doesn't do much lagging at all, it stays mostly at the same angle relative to the shoulders.

This is what I have gathered from all I have read. But, I'd like to point out that making your body do this can be tricky and there is difference in what you are feeling and what you are doing. Tristan Tanner explains this well in the link below about how he FEELS like his shoulder angle is more obtuse (in front of leg) and way out in front when it actually isn't.

https://youtu.be/x1t7Vv6BMwI

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Did that once with a rotator cuff/impingement syndrome injury.

Once.

I had not predicted the extreme results from that motion.

You need to use non-ethanol gas in mowers or they will foul up. I bought a mower off Craigs list 10 years ago and it still starts with 1 pull (in Florida). Of course I also push the mower forward as I pull so probably doesn't translate to disc golf form too much.

 

[sidewinder22]

This is what I have gathered from all I have read. But, I'd like to point out that making your body do this can be tricky and there is difference in what you are feeling and what you are doing. Tristan Tanner explains this well in the link below about how he FEELS like his shoulder angle is more obtuse (in front of leg) and way out in front when it actually isn't.

https://youtu.be/x1t7Vv6BMwI

I would say his feel is real.

 

[Waddball]

Thanks so much for this thread (and many others). I'm new to the sport (started last September), and of course struggling with consistency. These shoulder positions are illuminating. My natural tendency is to collapse the upper arm to about 60 or 70 deg, and not collapse the elbow soon enough (leading to rounding). Still have to fight against that, as it's hard (for me) to keep the upper arm and shoulder as a "fixed" entity, and yet stay loose enough for the lower arm to swing on a loose elbow hinge.

I had a dozen or so good recent throws, slowing it all down and getting the form right. Using an exaggerated wide rail helped. I was able, with comparatively little effort, to send my mids (Truth, Compass mostly) a little past 300' using a single step, and the form finally matched up with that graphic (and videos of competent players). Discs just shot out, faster and more accurate than ever. But then the next couple of sessions I lost it and can't seem to find that feeling again. Still, figure I did it once so it's there somewhere.

Question: is it natural/easy for most of you good throwers to keep a 90+ deg. shoulder/upper arm angle? I find it very hard to keep that angle and not have an overall stiff arm (no wrist bounce, little inertial collapse of the disc into the pocket). Any tips on maintaining 90, but keeping elbow/wrist floppy?

 

[sidewinder22]

Thanks so much for this thread (and many others). I'm new to the sport (started last September), and of course struggling with consistency. These shoulder positions are illuminating. My natural tendency is to collapse the upper arm to about 60 or 70 deg, and not collapse the elbow soon enough (leading to rounding). Still have to fight against that, as it's hard (for me) to keep the upper arm and shoulder as a "fixed" entity, and yet stay loose enough for the lower arm to swing on a loose elbow hinge.

I had a dozen or so good recent throws, slowing it all down and getting the form right. Using an exaggerated wide rail helped. I was able, with comparatively little effort, to send my mids (Truth, Compass mostly) a little past 300' using a single step, and the form finally matched up with that graphic (and videos of competent players). Discs just shot out, faster and more accurate than ever. But then the next couple of sessions I lost it and can't seem to find that feeling again. Still, figure I did it once so it's there somewhere.

Question: is it natural/easy for most of you good throwers to keep a 90+ deg. shoulder/upper arm angle? I find it very hard to keep that angle and not have an overall stiff arm (no wrist bounce, little inertial collapse of the disc into the pocket). Any tips on maintaining 90, but keeping elbow/wrist floppy?

Yes it's easy once you get it. The angle can vary, the feeling is more important. Loose but pulled taut. I think what most often happens with Ams is they try to spin the hips and shoulders too rotationally and create slack, instead of shifting deeper and swinging forward more linear.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138538

 

[Waddball]

Yes it's easy once you get it. The angle can vary, the feeling is more important. Loose but pulled taut.

Good to hear. I struggle quite a bit just keeping the arm loose. I tend to notice it mostly in my follow-through, where my arm stops kind of dead if I'm tense/robotic. Whereas a loose arm swings around and I end up left side to target (RHBH).

I think what most often happens with Ams is they try to spin the hips and shoulders too rotationally and create slack, instead of shifting deeper and swinging forward more linear.

Interesting that you say that, as I usually succeed at a lateral shift. It just feels weird to keep the shoulders closed during that. Mine want to jump straight to the 3rd image on the top line, but with the disc still back (arm mostly straight). I'm trying to go wide-narrow-wide to help fix that.

Reading between the lines and from the other thread as well, I'm still not quite getting something. If the shoulder is the hand on the string, and the upper arm stays loose, then even that slight shoulder turn (2nd image) should create a < 90 angle. So are we pretending the disc is so heavy that the lag essentially pushes the shoulder and elbow open? Or are we really treating the upper arm as the hand on the string?

 

[sidewinder22]

Good to hear. I struggle quite a bit just keeping the arm loose. I tend to notice it mostly in my follow-through, where my arm stops kind of dead if I'm tense/robotic. Whereas a loose arm swings around and I end up left side to target (RHBH).

Interesting that you say that, as I usually succeed at a lateral shift. It just feels weird to keep the shoulders closed during that. Mine want to jump straight to the 3rd image on the top line, but with the disc still back (arm mostly straight). I'm trying to go wide-narrow-wide to help fix that.

Reading between the lines and from the other thread as well, I'm still not quite getting something. If the shoulder is the hand on the string, and the upper arm stays loose, then even that slight shoulder turn (2nd image) should create a < 90 angle. So are we pretending the disc is so heavy that the lag essentially pushes the shoulder and elbow open? Or are we really treating the upper arm as the hand on the string?

Lot of things are counter-intuitive. You need to be loose, but also have structure, so that if you lose taut or speed, you still maintain structure and don't collapse to a point where you get tangled up and can't recover from. If you slow motion a hammer swing, you have to stiffen up to maintain structure. When you loosen up, and speed up you get pulled more taut. Not sure if this is a good explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-KVWfUkQ3s#t=3m14s

In regards to the handle/string, it can go all the way down the line from shoulders to hand. You can put the handle at any bone lever and the rest becomes the string. You don't want the string to bend. It's not a perfect analogy. Extension out to/thru the hit is more important than bending or angles.

 

[Waddball]

Yes it's easy once you get it.

I've been working on this and have improved it quite a bit. Not quite second-nature yet, but better. After your post I found I wasn't as turned back as I initially thought, so I've been driving my left arm back a bit as well to ensure my shoulders are a bit past perpendicular to the line. And, as you said, the upper arm angle is much easier to keep > 90 as the swing starts.

Now I'm back to trying to figure out how to get to position 5 on HUB's graphic. My upper arm wants to fly open, and the lower arm opens later than it should, creating a small arc. I find the only way I can force the correct/early lower arm hinge open (at least, per that graphic) is to slow so far down that the whole swing is clunky and wretched. Very hard to get "elbow drive" without also slamming the shoulder open. So many things to keep track of!

 

[sidewinder22]

I've been working on this and have improved it quite a bit. Not quite second-nature yet, but better. After your post I found I wasn't as turned back as I initially thought, so I've been driving my left arm back a bit as well to ensure my shoulders are a bit past perpendicular to the line. And, as you said, the upper arm angle is much easier to keep > 90 as the swing starts.

Now I'm back to trying to figure out how to get to position 5 on HUB's graphic. My upper arm wants to fly open, and the lower arm opens later than it should, creating a small arc. I find the only way I can force the correct/early lower arm hinge open (at least, per that graphic) is to slow so far down that the whole swing is clunky and wretched. Very hard to get "elbow drive" without also slamming the shoulder open. So many things to keep track of!

If the elbow remains forward relative to shoulder the entire swing, there is no need to drive it. The lower arm simply swings hinged from the elbow from a stable upper arm and closed shoulder. The swing out pushes the shoulders open. There should be outward arc if your hand is swinging faster than your elbow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs#t=8m26s

 

[Waddball]

If the elbow remains forward relative to shoulder the entire swing, there is no need to drive it. The lower arm simply swings hinged from the elbow from a stable upper arm and closed shoulder. The swing out pushes the shoulders open. There should be outward arc if your hand is swinging faster than your elbow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs#t=8m26s

Thanks. I'm just not comprehending, some imbecility is blocking me. I believe I'm doing that (keeping shoulder closed). I apply speed by torso rotation after a solid plant and shift, and I'm doing better at keeping arm relatively loose. But when I apply speed, the elbow kind of pulls the hand along a narrower plane (closer to my body) before the hand finally speeds up and whips out. So I get decent hand speed, but a crappy arc.

I've noticed from your other videos (and videos of other competent throwers) that when you actually throw a disc, there's a pronounced K shape, where I can see the disc change back to wide from narrow, much more than the hammer is doing in your posture video. I see that the whole throw needs to be smooth, no jerky pauses or stops, but unless I specifically pause and "throw" my hand/lower arm out (basically bouncing it away from my chest/pec right after it gets there), I don't get that arc change (or rather, I get it too late).

And maybe that's what I need to do, keep working that pause and bounce until it becomes smoother and faster. I had shoulder surgery a few years ago (tenotomy; they cut the upper bicep tendon) and I wonder if maybe that affects this a bit too. I probably need to film. I'm probably not as closed as I think I am. But if I try to exaggerate a really late, ultra-closed feeling, I put a lot of stress on my plant knee and it's not at all smooth or athletic.

Anyway, thanks so much for your insight and advice. I'll try not to pester, but I just did some field work yesterday so it's all fresh in my mind.

 

[sidewinder22]

Thanks. I'm just not comprehending, some imbecility is blocking me. I believe I'm doing that (keeping shoulder closed). I apply speed by torso rotation after a solid plant and shift, and I'm doing better at keeping arm relatively loose. But when I apply speed, the elbow kind of pulls the hand along a narrower plane (closer to my body) before the hand finally speeds up and whips out. So I get decent hand speed, but a crappy arc.

I've noticed from your other videos (and videos of other competent throwers) that when you actually throw a disc, there's a pronounced K shape, where I can see the disc change back to wide from narrow, much more than the hammer is doing in your posture video. I see that the whole throw needs to be smooth, no jerky pauses or stops, but unless I specifically pause and "throw" my hand/lower arm out (basically bouncing it away from my chest/pec right after it gets there), I don't get that arc change (or rather, I get it too late).

And maybe that's what I need to do, keep working that pause and bounce until it becomes smoother and faster. I had shoulder surgery a few years ago (tenotomy; they cut the upper bicep tendon) and I wonder if maybe that affects this a bit too. I probably need to film. I'm probably not as closed as I think I am. But if I try to exaggerate a really late, ultra-closed feeling, I put a lot of stress on my plant knee and it's not at all smooth or athletic.

Anyway, thanks so much for your insight and advice. I'll try not to pester, but I just did some field work yesterday so it's all fresh in my mind.

Once you shift forward closed - shift from behind, there shouldn't be any trying to hold closed, everything should just go and pivot forward.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118948

 

[Waddball]

Once you shift forward closed - shift from behind, there shouldn't be any trying to hold closed, everything should just go and pivot forward.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118948

Not sure yet, but I think I'm deweighting the rear foot and getting on the front too early (and robotically), dissipating the benefit of a dynamic shift into the brace. Not that my brace and shift are great, but I think my current issue here is with timing/sequence.

Thanks, that gives me plenty to think about and work on next session. I also think my weight is out too far past my toes, but one thing at a time! If I try more than that, I get nowhere.

 

[sidewinder22]

Not sure yet, but I think I'm deweighting the rear foot and getting on the front too early (and robotically), dissipating the benefit of a dynamic shift into the brace. Not that my brace and shift are great, but I think my current issue here is with timing/sequence.

Thanks, that gives me plenty to think about and work on next session. I also think my weight is out too far past my toes, but one thing at a time! If I try more than that, I get nowhere.

The weight pressure(not mass) shift to the front foot leads or dictates the rest of the swing sequence. The pressure shift can not be too early in time or sequence. Your mass shifting too far over is something else and usually result of weight pressure shifting too late or slow and tipping over.

 

[Waddball]

The weight pressure(not mass) shift to the front foot leads or dictates the rest of the swing sequence. The pressure shift can not be too early in time or sequence. Your mass shifting too far over is something else and usually result of weight pressure shifting too late or slow and tipping over.

Are you saying it's not possible, or that it's a bad idea?

What I feel is that I'm hardest into the right heel right before my backswing has peaked, and then it lightens as the swing comes forward. What I think should happen is that pressure should be at max at or just before the hit. But I feel like my pressure is maxed earlier.

And yeah, I'm sure I'm throwing my mass around incorrectly to some extent. I'm 6'5" and about 230 and I tend to get a little top heavy.

 

[sidewinder22]

Are you saying it's not possible, or that it's a bad idea?

What I feel is that I'm hardest into the right heel right before my backswing has peaked, and then it lightens as the swing comes forward. What I think should happen is that pressure should be at max at or just before the hit. But I feel like my pressure is maxed earlier.

And yeah, I'm sure I'm throwing my mass around incorrectly to some extent. I'm 6'5" and about 230 and I tend to get a little top heavy.

Not possible. Sounds like you are tipping over which is a balance issue, that throws off timing or sequence. I'm also a top heavy 230, but 5'7".
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133319

 

[Waddball]

Not possible. Sounds like you are tipping over which is a balance issue, that throws off timing or sequence. I'm also a top heavy 230, but 5'7".
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133319

It feels very possible to me to plant way too early relative to my backswing and/or torso movement, so I think I must not have communicated very well.

But yes, I'll study up on tipping over and put that on my growing list of things to resolve.