Snap Vs. Timing, Maxing at 350

[slowplastic]

You aren't braced against your front leg and are spinning out. Your left knee should be pointing at the target at the hit. As a result, your posture isn't good, look at your spine at the :44 second mark. Also, try bringing your elbow up higher.

This helped a lot over the last couple of rounds I played.

I haven't had a chance to do some dedicated field work to alter my timing, but I am feeling a smoother pull through with hopefully more elbow use (I still know I'm not getting the full hit feeling), and it results in less effort for acceleration. Everything happens later in the throw, and because of the better alignment, this acceleration isn't whipping my body around like it was in those videos where I had no choice but to spin. I still feel like I will be able to put more power from my back foot/toes through my body with practice.

The definite test is I can throw my 175g Star Vulcan again "properly" for the first time (consistently) in what seems like 2 months. This is all from a standstill too...I can get it to drift right very slowly on 350'+ shots, whereas before the turn was more immediate so likely when I "could" throw it before, it was due to a bit less of a clean release. Plus before I could only throw it from an X-step! I know when I get the hit happening properly this disc will hyzerflip 400-450, but as it is I'm happy to see a tangible improvement that this disc rolls significantly right on a standstill throw, with what feels like 80% effort.

Putters have glide, neutral/understable discs (Aviar, River) are very predictable even when thrown hard...spin is really nice to have on a disc. The scary thing is that they will likely act different again once I learn to get more spin on them.

Mocheez, do you notice a "bounce" feeling on your release or is it more of a hinge/outwards feeling? (If any of those make sense...)

 

[Mocheez]

I get the bounce feeling just before the hinge but it depends on the technique. If you are using the Blake/Dan Beto rail, I don't think there is much of a bounce at release. The bounce is if you are using more of a straight line pull to slam your wrist open. It comes from the sudden direction change when your wrist goes from neutral to closed to open. The key part of getting big distance is timing the shoulder jerk just after the bounce and having the hand strength to hang on. Try to get your body into a position where you can deliver a lot of acceleration at that exact moment.

 

[sidewinder22]

If you watch some high speed footage of top throwers, their lower arm bounces or oscillates through the finish after release just like a spring released from tension. There is a recoil.

 

[slowplastic]

I get the bounce feeling just before the hinge but it depends on the technique. If you are using the Blake/Dan Beto rail, I don't think there is much of a bounce at release. The bounce is if you are using more of a straight line pull to slam your wrist open. It comes from the sudden direction change when your wrist goes from neutral to closed to open. The key part of getting big distance is timing the shoulder jerk just after the bounce and having the hand strength to hang on. Try to get your body into a position where you can deliver a lot of acceleration at that exact moment.

Cool, thanks. That is in line with kind of what I feel.

I am doing more of a straight line pull, but starting a bit wider away from myself on the reachback than I had been previously. I find that I am most likely to feel that bounce when I have a good "rhythm" (same as timing...but it feels more like a rhythm when it works) between my pull into my chest and my extension/shoulder turn. It's a tough one for me to figure out how to get it consistent, but I've had that feeling and it's good to know that's what to aim for. The tough thing is if it's even the slightest bit off, I feel the bounce but my pinky/ring fingers get all slubbed up on the bounce/release on the rim...but if the timing is perfect the release is just clean automatically. It's difficult to get right!

I'm focusing on trying to create/maintain that feel in my throws, along with having my hips in a position that they can drive my shoulders open at the end, rather than in a position that pulls my arm across my body in the early stages of the throw...which turns out isn't useful for extension!

 

[slowplastic]

Update (& Question)

I have played some rounds recently and did a field practice session today. I feel like once I get the rhythm down (and bracing position) that day, I am half hitting about 50% of my throws. It's a very obvious feel when I half hit, and now those don't feel extra "special", just the ones that I don't get feel slow or floaty/noobish.

I am only throwing from standstill, I tried a couple of X-steps today but I had trouble maintaining the half hit feel, so I just kept on with the standstill. I got an Anode out 300' which is my first standstill putter 300+ drive ever, and I got fairways (DX Teebird, FD Jackal, River) all out 350'+ standstill. Apparently (from reading) with a half-hit it's possible to get fairways up to 400', but I assume that if I could add an X-step properly that this 350 would be close to 400...so I'm pretty sure it's a half hit. Is about 400 for half hit fairways with X-step/runup right to believe?

Question
I've read from multiple people in this thread that the power comes from delaying the shoulder power until the end and really pulling around with it...this gives the sideways force on the disc to really snap it around.

Whenever I tried to concentrate on my shoulder, I ended up losing my elbow timing and not getting any snap at all. Is this one of those things that the shoulder power is a timing issue, and I should be able to just "do it" or else I have to find a new timing...or is it something that I can add when I'm comfortable? What I mean is that if I'm only getting the half-hit 50% of the time, am I better off getting more comfortable with this feel until I can do it on command and add the extra power as I feel able to...or do I just need to abandon these positions/feel to find something that everything just "works" for?

Also, I know the full-hit doesn't have a real training tool yet, but for people who have achieved it...is it a transition/addition from the half-hit, or something different?

 

[Star Shark]

Markus Kallstrom is a great example of what Brad Walker calls the outward pull.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks for that video, nice side view. This is an outward reachback that you are meaning, like Nate Doss? I noticed today that if I wasn't reaching back fully it was hard to find my tempo, but once I did I was more consistently half-hitting again.

Reminds me of one more question...

It seems like lots of pro's have their shoulders ahead of their waist upon release/brace. Is this just because/when they do hyzer throws?

I have noticed that before and tried to change my centre of balance today but kept throwing hyzers (as that is how I throw hyzer/anhyzer by adjusting my upper body angle)....but is this shoulder ahead of waist positioning necessary for power even on flat throws?

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks Star Shark, I found this document which describes the outward pull (it's not the reachback) and may be interesting for others who want to read lots of detailed stuff on the hit/body positions: http://ripsychotherapy.com/pdf/RightPecDrill.pdf

 

[wildwing]

You aren't braced against your front leg and are spinning out. Your left knee should be pointing at the target at the hit. As a result, your posture isn't good, look at your spine at the :44 second mark. Also, try bringing your elbow up higher.

This helped a lot over the last couple of rounds I played.

Sidewinder pointed this out to me way back and have been working on it, off and on. Grabbed a teebird and a putter and joined some friends to play a couple of holes.

I really just concetrated on my footwork (bracing the front leg and slide my back leg into it)and not even thought of my upperbody. Didn't even have a full reachback.

What happened was effortless distance! Outdrove the other guys who were using distance drivers and parked it 10 feet away. Felt that "catapult" feeling that guys talk about.

I was feeling euphoric until I missed the putt. :doh:

 

[horsethief]

I've read from multiple people in this thread that the power comes from delaying the shoulder power until the end and really pulling around with it...this gives the sideways force on the disc to really snap it around.

If you're half-hitting, you should already be familiar with this delayed shoulder pull, or what Brad Walker calls the "outward pull". A full hit is the same, except that it has a little extra velocity going into the outward pull.

Also, I know the full-hit doesn't have a real training tool yet, but for people who have achieved it...is it a transition/addition from the half-hit, or something different?

If you're not able to get a full-hit with the hammer method, Blake suggests converting to the rail method for the full hit (being able to half-hit with the hammer is a requirement, otherwise the rail method will feel too foreign).

 

[slowplastic]

I guess what I was meaning with the delaying the shoulder power...

I know I am delaying the timing of the shoulder since I'm getting the wrist hinge feeling and I am guiding my elbow forward now. I just feel like it's effortless/easy, and like I could put "more" into the shoulder. But when I try to use this extra energy at the end then I'm not concentrating on the hit. I guess that means that I have better timing now than before, and I'll just keep working with that and the shoulder power will continue to strengthen as I feel more confident with my motions.

As per the half-hit vs full hit...I just know that I felt the palm bounce a few weeks ago several times (although that didn't give me extra distance) and multiple people have described that feeling in full hitting. I'm now feeling a wrist hinge/hammer pound but not the palm bounce, and my fairways from standstill are not over 400, which is why I am fairly confident I am experiencing half hitting instead of full hitting.

(Wordy thought this paragraph, skip if bored)
One thing that I have been thinking about recently is my set-up orientation/line. Even in a field when I'm trying to get the feel for the hit, I'm aiming a bit. I'm trying to keep myself open to let the disc come out when the timing allows it, but I'm still trying to throw it within about a 30 degree wedge. I don't know if the disc should be coming out more to the right hand side than it currently is. I know some people talk about this and how their "grip locks" are actually their good throws. The thing is that I already set up with a closed stance (you could draw a line from the target through my right heel, to/in front of my left toes) and my grip-locks don't bomb, they just go a similar distance to my normal throws. I think I have the correct alignment already....but I was just concerned if I am consciously aiming my throws to come out too early which would prevent holding the disc long enough. Then again the half-hit vs. full hit likely releases in nearly the same place I imagine...

Something that helped me to anyone trying to get the timing/rhythm:
On the reach back, start a bit of forward momentum/weight shift while the arm is just about to extend fully. Then with the elbow guide, instead of thinking right pec...think right armpit. Try to get the disc to nearly touch your right armpit. That will get it really far forward and even closer to your pec. Getting this elbow out that far is really the difference in timing for me to even half-hit. It's strange how the slightest different thought processes can change your timing, everything has to be so perfect for the disc golf drive to work.

 

[horsethief]

I know I am delaying the timing of the shoulder since I'm getting the wrist hinge feeling and I am guiding my elbow forward now. I just feel like it's effortless/easy, and like I could put "more" into the shoulder. But when I try to use this extra energy at the end then I'm not concentrating on the hit. I guess that means that I have better timing now than before, and I'll just keep working with that and the shoulder power will continue to strengthen as I feel more confident with my motions.

I think you have the right idea here. Just keep getting reps in and getting more consistent, as you get more and more comfortable, it will be easier to add more and more power.

As per the half-hit vs full hit...I just know that I felt the palm bounce a few weeks ago several times (although that didn't give me extra distance) and multiple people have described that feeling in full hitting. I'm now feeling a wrist hinge/hammer pound but not the palm bounce, and my fairways from standstill are not over 400, which is why I am fairly confident I am experiencing half hitting instead of full hitting.

If you're not getting the palm eject feeling, that means you're not actively accelerating your wrist open. If you just let it flap open on it's own accord that will be a half-hit. If you accelerate your wrist as it's flapping open (at the right timing), you will get the palm ejection feeling.

 

[slowplastic]

If you're not getting the palm eject feeling, that means you're not actively accelerating your wrist open. If you just let it flap open on it's own accord that will be a half-hit. If you accelerate your wrist as it's flapping open (at the right timing), you will get the palm ejection feeling.

Thank you. I appreciate how you've been following this thread. I realize so many things are said multiple times (and in multiple threads) but it takes people so many different steps to get it, and every step further the same info then has new meaning. Things are definitely moving along.

As you said I'll get more practice in, and keep adding consistency. The main thing I was concerned with, is if half hitting would "hurt" my chances of full hitting in the future, I would rather not settle for it if I know I can do better. But if it acts as a stepping stone then I'm fine with that and will continue to build muscle memory.

I'm very pleased though, when I get the half hit right I'm throwing standstill a little further than I was throwing with an X-step before this thread, and the discs are acting more predictable. Even a beat Classic Aviar goes 250-270 without any hint of turn when things go correctly, which was just sketchy to trust before I got this amount of spin on the disc.

I do find that I have a pretty loose grip/wrist (I know it will need to firm up eventually for more tendon bounce) so nose angles can be a bit of an issue for me again. But when I get nose down on my fairways they really take off like crazy.

 

[slowplastic]

Things are going well, I am still only throwing from a standstill but I am half-hitting every time and getting the nose down. My consistent foot-planted fairway distance is now ~350' with some going up to 370'. I am slowly experimenting with wrist timing and have felt some good things, but that will come. I am waiting until I can add that in consistently before I work on an X-step again...can't wait for all that extra distance! But first, consistency is way more important.

I just have a question about disc selection/flight now, that the power level has taken a noticeable increase. My DX Teebird is very light at 163 (everything else I throw is 170+), it's not thrashed looking...but it has been used for a while. It has obviously taken some tree hits and been taco'd once, but I don't throw it on overly wooded holes. Basically I'm saying it doesn't look haggard like some DX discs, but it has seen lots of throws, the majority of them on fields.

The Teebird used to be straight with maybe a slight ride right and no fade (released between 10 degree hyzer and flat). Now that I am throwing it further, with this release angle it rides wayyyy right. I know I am getting nose down on it more (which adds to its turn), but it is ending up ~350' away from me but 30-50' right of my line. I know I could hyzer flip this disc, but I thought Teebirds were known for their HSS. Is this normal flight at this distance for a lighter DX Teebird? Should I step up to a Star Teebird? The Teebird was just such a reliable flight and form analysis disc...if I want a hyzer-flipper I have other fairways for that.

 

[garublador]

The Teebird used to be straight with maybe a slight ride right and no fade (released between 10 degree hyzer and flat). Now that I am throwing it further, with this release angle it rides wayyyy right. I know I am getting nose down on it more (which adds to its turn), but it is ending up ~350' away from me but 30-50' right of my line. I know I could hyzer flip this disc, but I thought Teebirds were known for their HSS. Is this normal flight at this distance for a lighter DX Teebird? Should I step up to a Star Teebird? The Teebird was just such a reliable flight and form analysis disc...if I want a hyzer-flipper I have other fairways for that.

Beat DX Teebirds require a hyzer flip to fly straight, so that's normal. What they're know for in this state is still flying straight, but farther and with less fade than a new/high end Teebird. I wouldn't give up on it, that particular flight is one of the main reasons the Teebird is so popular.

 

[sidewinder22]

I've never been too fond of DX Teebirds, or DX/ProD anything really. I do love 150 Star or Champ ones though.

 

[slowplastic]

Beat DX Teebirds require a hyzer flip to fly straight, so that's normal. What they're know for in this state is still flying straight, but farther and with less fade than a new/high end Teebird. I wouldn't give up on it, that particular flight is one of the main reasons the Teebird is so popular.

Thanks, I think it could co-exist with a Star Teebird nicely then.

I see what you mean, for example my River has much more lateral movement during a low lazer-throw and will fade more if it gets up too high. The Teebird will just frozen-rope from a hyzer flip and drop. Plus it anhyzers predictably!

I haven't been playing as long as most people here so I haven't had a chance to experience all of the plastic beat-in cycles that people rave about. Sometimes it's hard to tell if it's me or the disc changing...it's often me

 

[DiscFan]

Something that helped me to anyone trying to get the timing/rhythm:
On the reach back, start a bit of forward momentum/weight shift while the arm is just about to extend fully. Then with the elbow guide, instead of thinking right pec...think right armpit. Try to get the disc to nearly touch your right armpit. That will get it really far forward and even closer to your pec. Getting this elbow out that far is really the difference in timing for me to even half-hit. It's strange how the slightest different thought processes can change your timing, everything has to be so perfect for the disc golf drive to work.

One thing that I have "just seen" after many video viewings, much reading, and lots of practice....

The timing that you refer to here (which is so very important) became clear to me when I noticed something I had somehow missed through repeated viewing of slow mo driving, regular mo driving, etc. I was looking at so many different things I missed something which has now revolutionized my timing.

I first "saw" it clearly in the slow mo Will S video...I had seen the same video many times. But for some reason, suddenly I noticed his full reach back and full extension forward of his plant foot were happening at the SAME TIME !!!

I then started seeing it all the time. Take a look at ALL the pros in the various videos...their arm pull might be similar but still different. Their arm movement before the drive might have variation...some go forward, some don't. Etc.

Now take a look at the timing of the plant foot coupled with the reach back!!

They ALL time their full reach back at the exact time their plant foot is about to "plant".


Well, I have begun to work on changing my timing to match this movement. I have to say holy cow!! Epiphany moment!

I am having to undo bad habits and it is frustrating when I don't get it right. But when I can focus just on this moment of full extension in both directions, my entire throw is coming so much more naturally. My accuracy and grouping in field throwing is much tighter, and distance has increased notably.

I am still working on snap and "full" distance. But this seems to have solved the timing riddle for me. Somethings click for someone and not someone else.

I was looking to share this, seemed like a good spot to do so. Hopefully it is, and helps someone. I know it has helped me tremendously!

:clap:

 

[slowplastic]

I am still working on snap and "full" distance. But this seems to have solved the timing riddle for me. Somethings click for someone and not someone else.

I was looking to share this, seemed like a good spot to do so. Hopefully it is, and helps someone. I know it has helped me tremendously!

:clap:

Very true, some things are the "it" moment for some, and some hinder others. I see so many people doing modified reach-backs, right pec...etc. Trying to focus just on that last motion. I needed that reach-back to happen with the forward shift, I feel the flow and timing that way into the elbow guide. It let everything flow.

It was such a problem for me to try to do a more compact throw to "learn" from...but once I just said screw it I'm doing a full throw a few times...then the timing worked. Now that I can get that feel every time, I can do a shorter reach back and still achieve the wrist extension. But before when it was a hit-or-miss situation for each throw...I needed all of that flow to help it happen.

 

[slowplastic]

One more question disc/flight wise for you guys...by my username and all the discing down I've been doing, I am still not used to the warp speeders. Now that I can throw my 175g Star Vulcan properly I am wondering what lines to best make of it (it's fun to bomb on the field!). I am also only throwing this from a standstill so far, I am releasing it between extremely mild hyzer and flat, and throws are 360-380' about 8-10' high absolute max...they drift right and then drift back left to the line that I threw at.

The wide rim makes it difficult but I can get a good pinch on it and really focus on nose down...they are line drives height-wise but have the lateral movement. I feel like I should be able to get more distance out of these compared to my fairways, even though I am not doing an X-step.

I assume discs of this speed should be kept low like 10' high max...and it doesn't need to be aired out at all, correct? This drifting flight is probably how to get furthest distance, since the fade is mostly forward, is that right (there is no spiking fade at all)? Perhaps my throw line is ok, but I'm just having more trouble translating the exact same wrist motion with such a wide rim? Or the final possibility....is there really not that much distance difference between my speed 7-9 discs and this 13 warp speeder...just that it can do it lower?