Spin Doctor getting jumped by kuoksa
- Thread starter Kjimsern
- Start date
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Do we agree with him?
You've been at this a while now.
I would like to know what you think (here or DM).
Nick Carroll
Par Member
I'll reply here with what I said in the comment section of that video:
No offense to anyone at all, but I think there is confusion here. Jaani (Spin Doctor) and Owen (Trebuchet Disc Golf) are talking about is a solution to a problem as outlined in the original video that Owen created. It's an issue I know quite a bit about, since I have it. So let me clear things up:
First of all, the video being critiqued is a highlight of a form review video where the trainee in question has an issue with elbow drop during the swing, as well as some off-axis torque that is reducing the distance and accuracy of the throw.
Second, the elbow can be too low, and in the video that Jaani was showing, the person's elbow was a little low, with the arm collapsed a little bit into the body. Not as dramatic as some people (like me), but it's there.
And yes, the disc is too high relative to the elbow, because the elbow is lower than it should be.
What Jaani is talking about is due to the upper body being too far forward, over the brace. This has the following effects:
1) The throwing shoulder is too high.
2) The throwing elbow is too low.
3) The disc is actually at the right height, just not relative to the disc.
4) The movement of the body is not properly stopped by the brace.
All this happens because of a balance issue, because the center of gravity is too far forward. The person's body is actually protecting itself by bringing the shoulder up and bringing the arm in closer to the body. This is what Jaani and Owen are trying to tackle.
This is not an issue where they're just teaching someone to throw. And even if you accept the idea that the elbow height is fine, and you ignore that the upper arm is collapsed a little into the body, you have to make an adjustment to the disc during the swing.
But Jaani and Owen are specifically not ignoring the problem the trainee has. Jaani describes it as throwing the whole body over the brace. That's the context he means when he says throwing is not a full body movement. You don't throw your body. You move your body to throw the disc. I think this gets lost in translation since English is not Jaani's primary language, nor is it for Kristian.
The "drop the hips" bit is something else entirely, but it's a cue to get people rotating the hips properly. It's not useful for everyone. It's the advice given to the person being reviewed, however.
Attached is the image of the problem the person is dealing with:
No offense to anyone at all, but I think there is confusion here. Jaani (Spin Doctor) and Owen (Trebuchet Disc Golf) are talking about is a solution to a problem as outlined in the original video that Owen created. It's an issue I know quite a bit about, since I have it. So let me clear things up:
First of all, the video being critiqued is a highlight of a form review video where the trainee in question has an issue with elbow drop during the swing, as well as some off-axis torque that is reducing the distance and accuracy of the throw.
Second, the elbow can be too low, and in the video that Jaani was showing, the person's elbow was a little low, with the arm collapsed a little bit into the body. Not as dramatic as some people (like me), but it's there.
And yes, the disc is too high relative to the elbow, because the elbow is lower than it should be.
What Jaani is talking about is due to the upper body being too far forward, over the brace. This has the following effects:
1) The throwing shoulder is too high.
2) The throwing elbow is too low.
3) The disc is actually at the right height, just not relative to the disc.
4) The movement of the body is not properly stopped by the brace.
All this happens because of a balance issue, because the center of gravity is too far forward. The person's body is actually protecting itself by bringing the shoulder up and bringing the arm in closer to the body. This is what Jaani and Owen are trying to tackle.
This is not an issue where they're just teaching someone to throw. And even if you accept the idea that the elbow height is fine, and you ignore that the upper arm is collapsed a little into the body, you have to make an adjustment to the disc during the swing.
But Jaani and Owen are specifically not ignoring the problem the trainee has. Jaani describes it as throwing the whole body over the brace. That's the context he means when he says throwing is not a full body movement. You don't throw your body. You move your body to throw the disc. I think this gets lost in translation since English is not Jaani's primary language, nor is it for Kristian.
The "drop the hips" bit is something else entirely, but it's a cue to get people rotating the hips properly. It's not useful for everyone. It's the advice given to the person being reviewed, however.
Attached is the image of the problem the person is dealing with:
Ive had the elbow drop problem for the longest time, i sometimes do it when i throw powershoots.
I tried lowering the hand below the elbow during the whole swing and it does help but it feels like it always comes down to the posture and balance instead
(as long as your reachback is not super high.)
Here is an example, i go for the eagle and you can notice me falling back to bad habits.
You can clearly see me tipping over since im also throwing down hill.
But im no expert, maybe kuoksa hand below elbow trick works.
I tried lowering the hand below the elbow during the whole swing and it does help but it feels like it always comes down to the posture and balance instead
(as long as your reachback is not super high.)
Here is an example, i go for the eagle and you can notice me falling back to bad habits.
You can clearly see me tipping over since im also throwing down hill.
But im no expert, maybe kuoksa hand below elbow trick works.
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Nick Carroll
Par Member
Yeah the posture and tilt of the torso will affect the downstream items like the arms in a throw. Lowering the hand can help, but often it'll still come up during the throw if the elbow drops, because the angle of the forearm will change and bring the disc up. This is what happens with the trainee. Shoulder up, elbow down, disc in the middle. You'd like to see the shoulder drop at a minimum, and the hand dropped, but the elbow pointing downward is what brings that hand up in the first place.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Lots of degrees of freedom in motion.
One issue to point out from balance land is that issues often occurs or is exacerbated when the whole body balance of a player is tipping over off the rear side rather than shifting underneath.
www.dgcoursereview.com
One issue to point out from balance land is that issues often occurs or is exacerbated when the whole body balance of a player is tipping over off the rear side rather than shifting underneath.
Repository of Cool Images
Elvis had a pretty good golf swing and guitar toss.
www.dgcoursereview.com
This is a image i will make a poster out of and put in my room, this has been my issue for the longest time so why not.Lots of degrees of freedom in motion.
One issue to point out from balance land is that issues often occurs or is exacerbated when the whole body balance of a player is tipping over off the rear side rather than shifting underneath.
Repository of Cool Images
Elvis had a pretty good golf swing and guitar toss.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Made it to the end.
Liked Kuoksa's breakdown. Mechanically I didn't see him show or say anything that shook me at the roots.
Especially liked how he briefly summarized findings from multiple sports contexts and the role of conditioning/peak strength etc, not just in peak power but for hard positions like patent pending.
Been thinking about/noticing this more recently and came up again with him: Kuoksa is a good example where his mastery of minor and drill motions look very similar to components of his live throws, and he can fluidly compare and contrast motions. Most people's drill and practice motions look very similar to what happens in their real throws, so in that sense they may generally be "honest" diagnostics in many cases.
Liked Kuoksa's breakdown. Mechanically I didn't see him show or say anything that shook me at the roots.
Especially liked how he briefly summarized findings from multiple sports contexts and the role of conditioning/peak strength etc, not just in peak power but for hard positions like patent pending.
Been thinking about/noticing this more recently and came up again with him: Kuoksa is a good example where his mastery of minor and drill motions look very similar to components of his live throws, and he can fluidly compare and contrast motions. Most people's drill and practice motions look very similar to what happens in their real throws, so in that sense they may generally be "honest" diagnostics in many cases.
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He's not wrong. That *is* how timezones work
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
That was going to get the "haha" emoji but you need to know I laughed harder than that
