Spin rate measurements?

[roggenb3]

Is there any existing data on spin rate in disc golf?

Are there any big tournaments, like NTs, where someone has a radar gun that can measure spin rate?

I would love to see some data, particularly how controllable it is.

E.G.
Can pros throw 30 mph shots with vastly different spin rates?
What about a full 65+mph drive?

At what speed does control over spin rate become so small it is negligible?

 

[franklinturnover]

Might require a high speed camera over head shot with some kind of marking on the disc to count the revolutions.

 

[roggenb3]

Might require a high speed camera over head shot with some kind of marking on the disc to count the revolutions.

If it can be done for baseballs, I would think the same tech would work for a frolf disc.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

If it can be done for baseballs, I would think the same tech would work for a frolf disc.

Baseballs have spin that is visible from the side.
I don't know what they are using but probably software that is looking though a fairly high speed camera and counting the seams.

I suppose if you had a mark on the edge of the disc you could see it from the side.

 

[jeverett]

Baseballs have spin that is visible from the side.
I don't know what they are using but probably software that is looking though a fairly high speed camera and counting the seams.

I suppose if you had a mark on the edge of the disc you could see it from the side.

The only studies on disc golf spin rate I've seen have been done with discs dyed with checkerboard patterns and a camera mounted directly above the flight plane.

 

[ODRB]

"The common misconception is that people need to ... get more snap and spin on the disc. Neither Paul [McBeth] nor I nor any good thrower thinks anything about consciously snapping the disc on a drive. The disc rips out of the hand, and all the spin you will ever need comes just from the joints passing each other. So as the elbow passes the shoulder, and the wrist passes the elbow, that's all the spin you're ever going to need. Just from the arm coming around. So you don't need to actually think about spinning it, at all. The ONLY time we think about that stuff is shorter touch shots, where you are not getting a rip out."

-Nate Sexton

 

[roggenb3]

Baseballs have spin that is visible from the side.
I don't know what they are using but probably software that is looking though a fairly high speed camera and counting the seams.

I suppose if you had a mark on the edge of the disc you could see it from the side.

No, they use radar for spin rate, I believe. I suppose it may need to be an overhead shot since the rim is so thin, but I think radar would work.

According a briefing giving to the University of illinois physics department , Trackman's Doppler radar is positioned high behind home plate and tracks the baseball collecting 48,000 measurements per second. It precisely measures the location, spin, angles, velocity and trajectory of a ball in flight.

"The common misconception is that people need to ... get more snap and spin on the disc. Neither Paul [McBeth] nor I nor any good thrower thinks anything about consciously snapping the disc on a drive. The disc rips out of the hand, and all the spin you will ever need comes just from the joints passing each other. So as the elbow passes the shoulder, and the wrist passes the elbow, that's all the spin you're ever going to need. Just from the arm coming around. So you don't need to actually think about spinning it, at all. The ONLY time we think about that stuff is shorter touch shots, where you are not getting a rip out."

-Nate Sexton

This is exactly what I want data on - where is the line between "shorter touch shots" and "ripping out"?

I imagine the line is different for everyone.

I would also imagine that it is a benefit to the player to able throw those "touch" shots, where spin is consciously thought about and controlled, to higher speeds.

This, I think, is really the hypothesis I would like to try to confirm with actual data, but we'd need a huge amount of it.

Do the best players have more control of spin to a higher speed? Does having exceptional control of spin at low speeds actually correlate to a better short game? What about putting, where spin control is most obvious?

And even on the shots where they aren't actively controlling it, there must still be variance. It would be interesting to see who's shots have the widest/tightest ranges of spin rate.

It would also be interesting just to see who has the highest and lowest spin rates.

 

[discerdoo]

Y'all be sure to nerd out on this one for a couple dozen pages, mkay?

 

[Putt for D'oh]

No, they use radar for spin rate, I believe. I suppose it may need to be an overhead shot since the rim is so thin, but I think radar would work.

If its radar then it is still evaluating the raised seams. Could be done with a reflective stripe on the edge of the disc maybe.

I would also imagine that it is a benefit to the player to able throw those "touch" shots, where spin is consciously thought about and controlled, to higher speeds.

I don't know how much actual control anyone has. I know for touch shots some pros will vary their grip for less and maybe a lot less spin, but thats about it, and as far as I understand that has more to do with how they want it to land more than it does flight.

I would be curious though just from a nerding out aspect on different spin rates on drives between various throwers and discs.

 

[ODRB]

"Neither Paul [McBeth] nor I nor any good thrower thinks anything about consciously snapping the disc on a drive. . . So you don't need to actually think about spinning it, at all."

-Nate Sexton

BrentJacobs and Throwbot think about spinning ALL THE TIME.

 

[roggenb3]

If its radar then it is still evaluating the raised seams. Could be done with a reflective stripe on the edge of the disc maybe.

I don't think that is true. It's hard to find much info on how the baseball system works, but I think it comes down to using multiple sensors, and the fact that various parts of the ball are moving at different speeds, which radar can detect.

Here's the patent application for the spin rate detection:
http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu/trackman/SpinParametersSportsBallPatent.pdf

 

[ThrowBot]

It's probably really tough to get "real world" spin data on discs. For baseball pitches, they are all travelling in a known and very narrow corridor, so it's much easier to set up the equipment to regularly and accurately record measure/record spin data during actual gameplay. (Also there's enough interest and money in baseball analytics to make that pursuit worthwhile.)

Whereas in disc golf, even when throwing from the same tee pad, players are taking a variety of different lines. Then subsequent throws from a large variety of locations. So just positioning the equipment to try and track spin rates during a round would be a huge task and still likely produce incomplete results.

Throwing into nets indoors would make it easier to collect disc spinning data on a reliable basis, but then the question becomes: does that environment skew the results at all? Are you really getting a data set that is representative of how folks throw during competitive rounds? Hard to know for sure.

So I guess what I'm saying is:
The OP raises some interesting questions, but I doubt there's a reliable dataset out there that would allow them to be answered.

 

[ODRB]

"[No] good thrower thinks anything about . . . spinning it, at all."

-Nate Sexton

And yet here we have an entire thread about spinning it.

Way to go DGCR.

 

[R-Ogre]

It would be hard to do in a tournament setting, but it would be easy enough to do in a field session using slo-mo video. If nothing else it would be interesting to get a couple numbers on some pro throws (like Ricky, Paul, Paige) and see how disc speed at release, spin rate, and distance correlate.

I have a hypothesis that with good form spin rate mostly correlates with arm speed. As evidence, let's look at the 500' putter throws. The only way to get a putter out that far without turn and burn is if there's a lot more spin on it than you and I can do-it would be like throwing into a 30+ mph headwind.

 

[roggenb3]

Throwing into nets indoors would make it easier to collect disc spinning data on a reliable basis, but then the question becomes: does that environment skew the results at all? Are you really getting a data set that is representative of how folks throw during competitive rounds? Hard to know for sure.

That's more what I was thinking. Like how some tourneys already do this with radar guns so people can see their velocity. I'd like to see that done with the full trackman setup and then let the pros just mess around on it for a while.

And yet here we have an entire thread about spinning it.

Way to go DGCR.

Wow, Nate Sexton said not to think about it, cooooooool. You're so smart for not wasting your time thinking about it......except for posting more times in this thread than anyone else.

 

[PoorPutter]

There are some old threads on this that somebody could prerube if they're less lazy than me. Or if I get bored, hahaha.

 

[PoorPutter]

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-111158.html

 

[DiscFifty]

"Neither Paul [McBeth] nor I nor any good thrower thinks anything about consciously snapping the disc on a drive."
-Nate Sexton

Is that from one of his older interviews? I think I remember seeing that years ago, good stuff. The reason no good thrower is thinking about it is due to muscle memory learned from years of practice. I think it's vital for new throwers to understand the concept and how it affects the disc, especially on slower speed discs, glide, etc. But I certainly agree over time you stop thinking about it and it becomes 2nd nature.

 

[roggenb3]

Is that from one of his older interviews? I think I remember seeing that years ago, good stuff. The reason no good thrower is thinking about it is due to muscle memory learned from years of practice. I think it's vital for new throwers to understand the concept and how it affects the disc, especially on slower speed discs, glide, etc. But I certainly agree over time you stop thinking about it and it becomes 2nd nature.

I agree. But being below the level of conscious decisions doesn't mean players aren't throwing shots with more or less spin.

Like headwind putts. I think most everyone puts some extra snap/spin on a short putt into a headwind vs with a tailwind. I know I do.

I wouldn't say I consciously "think about spin" per se, but it's definitely one of the variables my brain is calculating as I stand there feeling the wind, trying to lock into the line I want to hit.

Maybe a better example of using spin intentionally is a short putt, 30-50', with a large tree directly the path, so I'm trying to get left as quickly as possible after the tree. Spin putting is much easier to get the putter to glide over left, compared to push putting. Some shots like that I almost feel like I am trying to spin the disc in place - snapping the wrist really hard while still throwing a putt-speed shot.

 

[RFrance]

Here is some more information with data https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2764207&postcount=20. I can't remember the spelling of the name but the data was from someone like "Podansky".

This is the DGCR thread where HUB also posted https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115020