Standstill Shots as a Strategy for Accuracy

[UhhNegative]

I would argue the X-step typically will ADD accuracy due to making the timing more repeatable and allowing your body to move in the target direction and have that built in targetward momentum. Do we see pros doing standstills even on 250' shots? Not typically, because the timing and direction is easier with an x-step. Does that mean that they can't standstill 400'? Of course not, but given the space, most people are going to do at least a slow x-step.

 

[roggenb3]

I would argue the X-step typically will ADD accuracy due to making the timing more repeatable and allowing your body to move in the target direction and have that built in targetward momentum. Do we see pros doing standstills even on 250' shots? Not typically, because the timing and direction is easier with an x-step. Does that mean that they can't standstill 400'? Of course not, but given the space, most people are going to do at least a slow x-step.

Honestly I don't know about pros as I don't watch very much. I would imagine that on 250' no one is doing a run up.

I do differentiate between just a slow 1-2 step x step and a full run up. And in my initial posts the full run up is what I am talking about. Way too many players ALWAYS use an entire run up as if they are on a tee, for any and every shot. It adds way too many variables.

Personally, I don't think people should do even 1-2 steps until they can consistently throw straight from standstill. It's the foundation that the rest is built on. But, ya know, I'm no form expert, or pro level player.

Just my 2 cents based on what I see on the course from my fellow ams.

 

[UhhNegative]

Honestly I don't know about pros as I don't watch very much. I would imagine that on 250' no one is doing a run up.

I do differentiate between just a slow 1-2 step x step and a full run up. And in my initial posts the full run up is what I am talking about. Way too many players ALWAYS use an entire run up as if they are on a tee, for any and every shot. It adds way too many variables.

Personally, I don't think people should do even 1-2 steps until they can consistently throw straight from standstill. It's the foundation that the rest is built on. But, ya know, I'm no form expert, or pro level player.

Just my 2 cents based on what I see on the course from my fellow ams.

I'd say I see at least 90% pros using some sort of x-step even on shorter holes unless it's <200' or very downhill then you see a lot more standstills (like Maple Hill hole 4). While it might not technically be the best, a lot of golf comes down to confidence and that's typically the way most players are comfortable throwing.

But you are right, a full sprint run-up is almost never advised. Even for the top guys on full distance shots, yeah they are coming in with a little more speed than usual, but no more than your typical Am might do with some exceptions.

 

[Meillo]

... James Conrad.

 

[UhhNegative]

... James Conrad.

Yeah, almost mentioned him. He doesn't need the big run up, just mentally he does. He would be an even bigger thrower if his form was better.

 

[sidewinder22]

Follow through is critical to not straining your back and, unfortunately, becomes less automatic when using a standing throw. The x-step creates momentum that gets partly converted into rotation of the hips and upper body, which helps with follow through. For a standing drive you have to really focus on the weight shift and rotating follow through or you risk wrenching your low back.

It also helps a lot to make sure your off shoulder is mirroring the throwing shoulder, coming fully forward towards the target as the throwing shoulder goes back for the reach back. Doing this winds the upper body spring, ensuring a smoother unwinding rotation that helps both distance and follow through.

I would heed caution. I do agree followthru is critical to safely decelerate, but that is facilitated by your balance/posture and sequence during the throw.

IIRC most spine injuries stem from the backswing transition as you reverse direction which twists/torques the lower spine, especially when a player tries to increase x-factor separation of the hips and shoulders in the backswing and really tries to fire the pelvis into rotation from the rear leg rather than shifting forward from it. Trying to rotate forward also keeps your weight back which makes it harder to followthru on the front leg. Most spine damage is done at the start of the throw rather than after release. You are generating a lot more torque from the lower body early in the throw to the upper body. The followthru is just leftover/dissipated momentum from the upper body pulling the lower body thru.

A more linear followthru will ease tension on the spine, ie less momentum from bracing converted into rotation. The x-step creates more momentum, but is not necessarily safer than a standstill throw. More momentum brings in more risk for injury. It really all depends on your balance/posture and sequence, but with all things being equal the x-step is higher risk and will twist the spine more early in the throw.

Your hips(legs) create the backswing, not your shoulders. The shoulders just follow the hips or move together for the most part or should be. The core muscles resisting hip to shoulder separation from neutral actually creates the spring in the transition forward as the shoulders will lag behind the hips without trying to lag them, you really don't want to add shoulder lag. You really want to try to move them together. The shoulders physically can't lead the hips rotationally. One of the biggest myths in most sports is that your shoulders can lead the throw ahead of the hips rotationally. You can tip or throw the shoulders over the hips, but that's not a rotational sequence issue. That is a balance issue. If you are rotating your shoulders away in the backswing, then you are actually sending your pelvis forward and twisting the spine.

I don't think I'd still playing without this video.

 

[Smigles]

It is a matter of preference. I need the x-step to get my timing right. I can't hit a house from 10 feet away when standing still.

 

[Meillo]

How do you deal with horrible footing that makes an x-step impossible?

 

[drk_evns]

When I stand still, I have my stance a bit tighter than I usually would. Then in the backswing I lift my front foot and move it just a bit forward to the plant. Helps with the consistent feeling of the shift and brace.

 

[F. Howl]

^^I got a similar thing going on. My approach confidence during tourneys was lower than it is now, but the slight rocking, makes the throw feel a bit more comfortable. Still needs some work, but it goes well more of the time now. Looks like this:
https://youtu.be/mfvzUuN9Wd4?t=127

 

[Casey 1988]

Actually on long approach shots from 50 feet on back I do a step to the mini before the back kick, if I am trying to do more a putt or needing more accuracy and not doing the midrange standstill approach shot where it is a different style of putting stance from my normal one with front foot sideways with a more midrange type throw to the basket. I also do a standstill midrange shot or the end part of X step in long tight tunnel midrange to awkward almost fairway distance tight shots, true fairway shots I am doing a short slower X step I am just not doing my slightly longer power run up X step with the small mini hop.

 

[nothinbuttree]

I thought about making a new thread for these questions, but they seem to fit well here.

I am 12 months in, mid 50s, decent condition, RHBH mostly, serviceable FH. Started with X-step, backed off to standstill and like others, have improved accuracy with no loss in distance, which tells me my X-step form was off.

Questions:
1. What specifically does a run-up add to get more forward velocity and/or spin on the BH throw that cannot be duplicated on a standstill? I know the forward movement of the thrower adds a little bit, but from posts it seems like that will be minimal. Many on here say they get an extra 100'-150' on a run-up. Should it be that much of a difference?

2. What is a max distance I should be shooting for on a standstill putter throw before I even think about adding an X-step back into the picture? Right now, I can get a putter out about 220' on a consistent basis from a standstill. I would love to get my max drives out to 375' with some accuracy. Honestly don't need any more at this point in my life.

Thanks for any thoughts!

 

[disco40]

Noob here who throws much more accurately and with less physical effort utilizing a slow walk-up or one full step rather than a standstill for anything I'm trying to throw with some pace (i.e. not short approaches). I find the weight transfer from a standstill requires more physical effort, too, which makes timing more difficult. Not sure how anybody sees it differently, seems rather obvious.

 

[Ryan P.]

I thought about making a new thread for these questions, but they seem to fit well here.

I am 12 months in, mid 50s, decent condition, RHBH mostly, serviceable FH. Started with X-step, backed off to standstill and like others, have improved accuracy with no loss in distance, which tells me my X-step form was off.

Questions:
1. What specifically does a run-up add to get more forward velocity and/or spin on the BH throw that cannot be duplicated on a standstill? I know the forward movement of the thrower adds a little bit, but from posts it seems like that will be minimal. Many on here say they get an extra 100'-150' on a run-up. Should it be that much of a difference?

2. What is a max distance I should be shooting for on a standstill putter throw before I even think about adding an X-step back into the picture? Right now, I can get a putter out about 220' on a consistent basis from a standstill. I would love to get my max drives out to 375' with some accuracy. Honestly don't need any more at this point in my life.

Thanks for any thoughts!

All of this assumes "good" (not perfect but no glaring problems) form. If you haven't seen the pros I'm going to reference, youtube is your friend.

1a. In general for me, it maximizes the power from my lower body movement. Specifically, my forward momentum can be translated into torque in my legs (slightly), my hips/core (a lot), and shoulders (somewhat). The degree to which this occurs in a golfer varies drastically. There are pros with a fast run-up (James Conrad) who "only" throw as far as pros with a turtle-speed run-up (Tristan Tanner). Deciding the right amount of run-up will vary for each person depending on your personal goals, the difference in your distance with and without a run-up, and the difference in your accuracy with and without a run-up.

1b. It depends on where you generate your power. I have a huge difference in distance with and without a run-up because I generate a lot of power from my lower body and core, and relatively little from my upper-body. In a stand still throw, I'm minimizing the good part of my throw (my lower body). I have a weak arm (I'm working on that). If I throw standstill, I'm happy to get 325. If I have a run-up, I'm consistently hitting 425-450. But again, it's because my power is generated from my lower body.

2. There is no magic number. Once you're happy with your stand still form, regardless of your distance, feel free to add a one-step (Johne McCray) walking X-step (Tristan Tanner), then a run/hop/etc. (Paul McBeth/Eric McCabe) to extend it or speed it up. 220 is a solid distance with a BH putter, but again, it's going to depend on where you expect to generate power.

p.s. I do not suggest the full James Conrad (i.e. his run-up). I used to do it, and I found that it added very little (if any) distance while reducing my accuracy a lot. James is a unique case where a long run-up doesn't mess with his accuracy, but he talks again and again how short teepads bother him. I'm willing to bet that if he cuts his run-up in half he doesn't lose more than 20' of distance.

Good Luck!

 

[sidewinder22]

I thought about making a new thread for these questions, but they seem to fit well here.

I am 12 months in, mid 50s, decent condition, RHBH mostly, serviceable FH. Started with X-step, backed off to standstill and like others, have improved accuracy with no loss in distance, which tells me my X-step form was off.

Questions:
1. What specifically does a run-up add to get more forward velocity and/or spin on the BH throw that cannot be duplicated on a standstill? I know the forward movement of the thrower adds a little bit, but from posts it seems like that will be minimal. Many on here say they get an extra 100'-150' on a run-up. Should it be that much of a difference?

2. What is a max distance I should be shooting for on a standstill putter throw before I even think about adding an X-step back into the picture? Right now, I can get a putter out about 220' on a consistent basis from a standstill. I would love to get my max drives out to 375' with some accuracy. Honestly don't need any more at this point in my life.

Thanks for any thoughts!

1. Forward velocity basically just makes the backswing longer/faster from your center assuming your arm is basically just a whip or pendulum. If you move/accelerate your center/fulcrum of the pendulum forward, the ball on string gets "pulled back" from inertia/lag assuming it is pulled taut and without slack in the string. The faster you accelerate your center the more the string gets pulled back and the faster it swings forward. When your swing is really efficient extra speed typically helps less than those with less efficient swings. 10-20% extra distance on x-step is about typical for very efficient swings but can be 30% or more on faster runner ups and 360s(although much higher level of difficultly to maintain everything), while less efficient swings can typically be anywhere up to 30-50% or possibly even more and just burning thru gas trying to get the same distance.

2. At your age and experience 220' sounds pretty decent although I probably say shoot for closer to 250' with putter. Really hard to give numbers though because everybody is different. You are welcome to post a vid for critique which may help more.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

2. What is a max distance I should be shooting for on a standstill putter throw before I even think about adding an X-step back into the picture? Right now, I can get a putter out about 220' on a consistent basis from a standstill. I would love to get my max drives out to 375' with some accuracy. Honestly don't need any more at this point in my life.

You're right where I am currently. I'm blowing up my form this year and have spent about 8 hours so far in March doing putter standstills. My best ones where I feel the putter rip off my fingers nicely make it to about 220'. I'm trying to make it consistent before I move to the next skill.

For reference, that's how far I was getting my Rocs and Buzzzes to go with my old form. So I'm at least improving.

 

[nothinbuttree]

Thanks for the great replies thus far! I guess I never thought much about power from below my waist transforming into arm speed or rotation. I will focus on that and try to get the standstill out a little further. I don't want to ever again sacrifice accuracy though, cause its a much more fun time when that disc goes where you aim it!

I'll try to get a video up in the coming days, been slammed at work lately (self-employed, you make hay while the sun shines...)

 

[sidewinder22]

Thanks for the great replies thus far! I guess I never thought much about power from below my waist transforming into arm speed or rotation. I will focus on that and try to get the standstill out a little further. I don't want to ever again sacrifice accuracy though, cause its a much more fun time when that disc goes where you aim it!

I'll try to get a video up in the coming days, been slammed at work lately (self-employed, you make hay while the sun shines...)

Your feet/body sets up the aim, not your arm manipulating it. Need to let your arm go and be the whip/sling shot, like using an axe to chop of tree. It will feel weird to let go, but when you use the swing weight you can be more powerful and surprisingly accurate.

The "off-season" is the best time to work on things. If you are committed to working on your form, then you can not worry about accuracy/scoring/performance in competition short term - be prepared to suck or be wild for a few months. If you go back into "competition mode" too early you will likely revert/regress back to old bad habits. Your "training mode" must be settled in before you can go back into "competition mode" and progress.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126516

 

[BillFleming]

I got truly lucky with the folks in the club I joined (Prescott Disc Golf Club - shout out). They advised me to start with a stand still throw until I get the fundamentals down and get consistent. Then move to a one step and once I'm consistent there, go to a walk-up.

After a year, I'm getting ready to add the one step.