Straight & Flat Swing Plane Does Not Exist!

[sidewinder22]

So I think a lot of players really struggle finding that effortless distance because they are trying to throw straight and flat by pulling the disc with the arm in a straight line and trying to manipulate the spin of the disc flat by actively curling the wrist and arm into horizontal flexion and extension, and manufacture the rotation of their body from the rear foot and hips which will just spin everything out and around.

There has to be a rotation/twirl sent up through the torso from bracing up on the front leg and rotation out the shoulder to arm/disc like ball on string to keep the release of the disc on the plane you want without hurting yourself. The rear foot is just driving your center of gravity laterally targetward/forward into a tilted axis to twirl from and countering forward behind the front leg to balance against that big inertial burst pulling your center of gravity targetward.

There will be some rotation from the rear foot leveraging against the ground, but you naturally do this walking and running without trying to rotate! It happens as a byproduct of moving forward with how the body works! You have to shift your weight forward/tilt CoG targetward and naturally swivel your pelvis back and forth to walk straight forward efficiently, but you don't have to think about this. This is the same thing when moving lateral to the target efficiently. You will rotate more in the throw because you are bringing the torso and arm/disc swing back and forth to sling it. If you want to make a bigger burst, then make your swing longer/bigger from your center without tipping off balance and you will rotate everything more by shifting back and forth without spinning the feet in the ground.

This would be a theoretical vertical spine and "Flat Swing Plane". It would be hard and awkward trying to shift from one foot to the other foot maintaining this flat swing plane as gravity works against you. This is why I say Flat doesn't really exist. It's also the most inconsistent angle you could attempt to throw on, 1 degree variation is either hyzer or anhyzer. If you want to throw on 10 degree hyzer or anhyzer and miss by +/- a couple degrees, it's not going to change your shot nearly as drastically.

Meanwhile this is totally natural and effortless and working with gravity:





Straight does not Exist! Your stance has be in dynamic alignment to the apex of your shot, either left to right or right to left as there is no such thing as a straight or flat. The disc is either thrown to the left(RHBH) and draw'ed over straight(distance anhyzer/hyzer-flip), or thrown right to left and faded straight(pure hyzer). Your feet have to allow your hips to be setup neutral to your pelvis(hip flexibility) to allow your hips the freedom and natural range of motion to allow the torso to turn back and forth smoothly and effortlessly.

Wide-Narrow-Wide vs Straight
Link to bigger pic: https://i.imgur.com/5851NqB.jpg

Link to bigger pic: https://i.imgur.com/TlSEKVJ.jpg

 

[Tepi]

I really like this pendulum thinking, what I haven't figured out is how to not hug myself when doing it. What is your thought process regarding shoulder on this, is it hanging from your socket? How do you prevent it from collapsing? (Might have been in the video but all that info coupled with my bad english feels bit overwhelming sometimes)

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

The flat swing plane does exist and this fact has been brought to your attention previously.

The 'flat swing plane' is a mnemonic device to help the player with alignment and aiming.
No one, not even the mighty sidewinder, can hold all these minute myriad technical details (of which you are a chronicler of note) about the throw in their mind at the same time he attempts to execute. This is the whole reason for a 'swing thought' like, a 'flat swing plane'.

Another example of an 'untrue myth' which is actually a swing thought is Feldberg's suggestion to 'shovel under' when feeling out the mechanics of a push-putt.

The point is that any tool is most useful for the purpose it is designed and appears just as silly when used inappropriately. K.I.S.S.

 

[sidewinder22]

The flat swing plane does exist and this fact has been brought to your attention previously.

The 'flat swing plane' is a mnemonic device to help the player with alignment and aiming.
No one, not even the mighty sidewinder, can hold all these minute myriad technical details (of which you are a chronicler of note) about the throw in their mind at the same time he attempts to execute. This is the whole reason for a 'swing thought' like, a 'flat swing plane'.

Another example of an 'untrue myth' which is actually a swing thought is Feldberg's suggestion to 'shovel under' when feeling out the mechanics of a push-putt.

The point is that any tool is most useful for the purpose it is designed and appears just as silly when used inappropriately. K.I.S.S.

That's the whole point of the Reciprocating Dingle Arm Drill. Let go of the arm and stop trying to think about things!

 

[sidewinder22]

I really like this pendulum thinking, what I haven't figured out is how to not hug myself when doing it. What is your thought process regarding shoulder on this, is it hanging from your socket? How do you prevent it from collapsing? (Might have been in the video but all that info coupled with my bad english feels bit overwhelming sometimes)

If the shoulder/humerus is rotating like the ball and socket joint that it is, instead of folding and unfolding the humerus like a door hinge that is it not, then it is not collapsing.

 

[ohtobediscing]

All this thinking about having fun...what a bummer. :\

I just feel where I want the disc to go and make the throw, man.

 

[slowplastic]

I really like this pendulum thinking, what I haven't figured out is how to not hug myself when doing it. What is your thought process regarding shoulder on this, is it hanging from your socket? How do you prevent it from collapsing? (Might have been in the video but all that info coupled with my bad english feels bit overwhelming sometimes)

Usually collapsing is because players are pushing off of the rear leg...so the spine and rotation are centered on the back leg but we look at it on video relative to the front leg, so it looks collapsed.

Basically, pushing into rotation from the back leg is the most common cause of collapsing lead shoulder IMO. If you get onto the front leg before throwing, especially with the spine over the front leg and right shoulder closer to the target than your front hip, then your right arm should be pulled correctly rather than collapsing inward. Think like shoulder pulling the arm along for the ride vs. chest getting pushed in toward an extended arm.

 

[sidewinder22]

Follow Up

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm not trying to kick my leg leg thru or spin my body from the rear foot. The rear leg is being pulled thru from the inertia of the right hand and disc!

 

[deyo7]

I really like this pendulum thinking, what I haven't figured out is how to not hug myself when doing it. What is your thought process regarding shoulder on this, is it hanging from your socket? How do you prevent it from collapsing? (Might have been in the video but all that info coupled with my bad english feels bit overwhelming sometimes)

I can relate to this and possibly explain what Tepi might be going through, with hugging yourself when doing the pendulum ...

I'm wondering if confusions stems partly from misconception that pendulum must be a straight up and down thing. If I go almost straight up and down pendulum arc/extreme hyzer I tend to collapse my shoulder in the backswing.

What I mean is if I typically try to throw like Barry here below and swing my arm way outside (horizontal-ish) during the backswing, I tend to get good pop on the disc. It's not that I'm trying to throw flat either. I believe I throw most everything on a slight hyzer. But if I lower my backswing down low, to what I would think would be a good pendulum, it seems to go haywire. I'm wondering if this is because of a couple things. And the issues are also somewhat related to the misconception that a good pendulum is completely straight up and down (vertical):

I think maybe my arm gets too close to my body when doing this because A) I'm not turning back enough, which helps to get a wider upper arm angle and B) because I'm swinging straight down in backswing and not enough to the side. So essentially, I'm swinging too low in the backswing and not accounting for a good swing plane (the Wysoki high five, et. al) like you show in your two new videos in this thread. Do you follow my confusion?

Barry Shultz - Multi World and USDGC Champ:


Cheers

 

[Tepi]

Thanks, I think you are both right. SP suggested to try throwing by having 10cm platform under left leg, I probably did it wrong but it really made me feel how different it feels leaving that rear leg instead of being stuck on it.

This SW's "the swing" video is really amazing, I can feel massive difference in that lateral hip movement when doing a golf swing and throwing a disc... Will have to work more on sequence, but I feel these couple days have made me connect alot of dots together. Some golden stuff coming from everywhere right now, really appreciate all your work, keep it up!

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm wondering if confusions stems partly from misconception that pendulum must be a straight up and down thing. If I go almost straight up and down pendulum arc/extreme hyzer I tend to collapse my shoulder in the backswing.

What I mean is if I typically try to throw like Barry here below and swing my arm way outside (horizontal-ish) during the backswing, I tend to get good pop on the disc. It's not that I'm trying to throw flat either. I believe I throw most everything on a slight hyzer. But if I lower my backswing down low, to what I would think would be a good pendulum, it seems to go haywire. I'm wondering if this is because of a couple things. And the issues are also somewhat related to the misconception that a good pendulum is completely straight up and down (vertical):

I think maybe my arm gets too close to my body when doing this because A) I'm not turning back enough, which helps to get a wider upper arm angle and B) because I'm swinging straight down in backswing and not enough to the side. So essentially, I'm swinging too low in the backswing and not accounting for a good swing plane (the Wysoki high five, et. al) like you show in your two new videos in this thread. Do you follow my confusion?

Barry's pendulum is just very shallow in the backswing because he keeps his arm stiff. I used to use Barry's backswing and gave me a big ahah moment. Then when I figured out Feldberg/Stokley loose backswing it gave me more distance with less effort.

Too low backswing is only possible if you are crouching in the x-step. It's a matter of your body being out of the way and fluid and relaxed. Have to be upright or hopping in x-step for pendulum to swing through. If you hop your body is totally relaxed and out of the way. And as you go up as pendulum goes down and actually keeps the backswing plane flatter with a bigger arc from your center.

 

[deyo7]

Barry's pendulum is just very shallow in the backswing because he keeps his arm stiff. I used to use Barry's backswing and gave me a big ahah moment. Then when I figured out Feldberg/Stokley loose backswing it gave me more distance with less effort.

Too low backswing is only possible if you are crouching in the x-step. It's a matter of your body being out of the way and fluid and relaxed. Have to be upright or hopping in x-step for pendulum to swing through. If you hop your body is totally relaxed and out of the way. And as you go up as pendulum goes down and actually keeps the backswing plane flatter with a bigger arc from your center.

OK thank you. Yeah I totally trust you that it's the better more efficient way I just haven't been able to achieve it yet. Probably just need more practice at it - will try to focus on the hop and being loose. And, yes (!), Feldberg is exactly what I was thinking in terms of the more vertical-ish pendulum that I've thus far been unable to replicate. I feel like a lot of his drives appear to have a very narrow upper arm angle relative to chest during the backswing, like 90 degrees. That is what happens to me (what appears to be upper arm collapse - at least I tend to collapse my upper arm angle) but I am not able to pull it off like Feldberg. Like this drive at the 4 minute mark (supposed to start there if worked):

https://youtu.be/nyO6B2Wf0jU?t=237
Maybe you'll be able to point out some misunderstanding that I have from this.

In comparison it's easier for me to think of pump forward, backswing comes back way out wide and just make sure that I stop the (horizontalish) pendulum with my shoulder and lats by the time it gets to 120-135 degrees. I know it's probably backwards in terms of what most people find more efficient and it's not that I'm advocating that the Schultz, Eric Oakley backswing is the better way it's just what's currently easier and repeatable for me right now. Maybe I'll try slowly marrying the Schultz and Feldberg method until a lower Pendulum feels right....

 

[UhhNegative]

The elbow ultimately controls the lower arm so it doesn't really matter how wide the lower arm gets during the backswing (probably some minor advantages/disadvantages). You can almost forget about the lower arm and just worry about the elbow. Pretend your upper arm from shoulder to elbow is one rigid rod of a nunchuck, the lower arm is the chain, and the disc is the other rigid rod.

 

[RFrance]

I think this video of Mike Austin teaching Mike Dunaway about the plane in the golf swing has some good comparisons for the swing plane discussed here. Also at 8:10 he demonstrates the importance of the pronation and supination of the hand. It looks like Mike Dunaway was under the cruel tutelage of pai mei.

https://youtu.be/iF-h_xyCzAc?t=194

 

[Casey 1988]

However I do not do any reach back as that takes so much energy for me with short arms, I do it the Dave Feldberg and Scott Stokley method. I also do not have the arm keep moving after disc is thrown as I will then hold onto disc with thumb and/or other fingers when driving with release on the disc. Also it has always been awkward to do the thowback after the disc is released.

 

[ALT-J]

Question about the dingle arm. Im a little confused how the arm especially the upper arm and shoulder area are suppose to be feeling. Completely loose arm is easiest way to generate speed from the hips but the upper body gets disconnected very easily. Another way is to resist the forward momentum with the arm, sort of stretching it out with stable shoulder. The upper arm and shoulder area feel pretty tight. The problem is that the first option is more lower body and the second one more upper body oriented throw. First one is more speed, less control and easier on the body and the second one is a little less speed with less motion, more control and a little harsh on the body.

 

[sidewinder22]

Question about the dingle arm. Im a little confused how the arm especially the upper arm and shoulder area are suppose to be feeling. Completely loose arm is easiest way to generate speed from the hips but the upper body gets disconnected very easily. Another way is to resist the forward momentum with the arm, sort of stretching it out with stable shoulder. The upper arm and shoulder area feel pretty tight. The problem is that the first option is more lower body and the second one more upper body oriented throw. First one is more speed, less control and easier on the body and the second one is a little less speed with less motion, more control and a little harsh on the body.

Loose, but everything connected/pulled taut centrifugally like Olympic Hammer Throw one-arm. Your stance dictates your release point for the most part.

 

[deyo7]

Tried pendulum out today with fairly good success - short course though, mostly just throwing Comet and Roc. I believe I was correct on my assumption above that I'd previously not had success with it because I wasn't turning back at the hips enough - also need good balance on rear foot in backswing; i.e., not rushing it. a balanced hop helps.

Question on the positioning or direction of the pendulum during the backswing. Do you let it flow straight back to the opposite point of your throwing apex? Or do you let your body position and stride determine the aim to your apex and bring the pendulum more wide of your body to the left side of the teepad? Or both/and What is best for accuracy and power?

For example, when viewing you/thrower from behind, like at 3:30-400 in the titled twirl star burst.... Do I want to bring disc slightly toward left side of teepad at top of the backswing? Or not exactly necessary if I'm supinating and pronating like you show here?

Follow Up

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Question on the positioning or direction of the pendulum during the backswing. Do you let it flow straight back to the opposite point of your throwing apex?
2. Or do you let your body position and stride determine the aim to your apex and bring the pendulum more wide of your body to the left side of the teepad?
3. Or both/and What is best for accuracy and power?

For example, when viewing you/thrower from behind, like at 3:30-400 in the titled twirl star burst....
4. Do I want to bring disc slightly toward left side of teepad at top of the backswing?
5. Or not exactly necessary if I'm supinating and pronating like you show here?

1. Yes, flows straight back from apex.
2. Yes, this is how it flows straight back with body out of the way of backswing while moving into shot.
3. Both.

4. For "straight" or right to left hyzer.
5. With a true pendulum backswing/Feldy style its just supinated/external rotation to the top of the backswing so disc plane. Everything gets flattened out/less rotation when you don't bend the elbow or the less you bend the elbow. This why Feldy so consistent/player of the decade, less moving parts.