Supination vs pouring the coffee, how can they both be nose down?

[disc-golf-neil]

Edit: in case anyone finds this with the same question

My tests have shown for me that supination has a greater potential for nose down assuming pretty good form or better with a non-collapsed power pocket and a release point around 10-11 o'clock. At that 10-11 o'clock position supination is more directly in the nose down direction and supination has a larger range of motion than ulnar deviation. Ulnar deviation at that release point seems to be almost in the nose down direction, so as the disc is starting to rip out it gets closer to ulnar deviation being in the nose down direction. However, ulnar deviation has big variation on it's impact to nose angle depending on the alignment of the disc through the hand from very little effect on nose angle to a pretty good amount with a different grip alignment:



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For RHBH


View attachment 328949

1. First of all, I've just recently heard the phrase "turning the key" yet so I'm not totally sure what the traditional advice is for it. Is it supination?
2. When people say turn the key, or supinate to help with nose angle, is the advice to do it just before the hit or maintain it throughout the swing?

I've heard people who briefcase carry (pronation) will keep some of the pronation for more anhyzer, supinate back to flat for flat shots, or supinate passed flat for hyzers. This is what Gannon said when I asked him "are you always trying to supinate back to flat and then mostly use body angle for the release angle?" He said he does both.

3. So if pronation = more anhyzer, how can supination = more nose down instead of more hyzer? Or is it both?
4. If pouring the coffee (ulnar deviation) helps nose down, how can supination help with nose down? They are very different motions. I guess as the supination rotates the wrist it is changing the direction of the coffee pour so the changed direction could be the key.

The attached video is an exaggeration so it's easier to see the differences, I know that people who briefcase carry don't maintain such extreme pronation throughout the swing even for anhyzer shots.

 

[RowingBoats]

1. First of all, I've just recently heard the phrase "turning the key" yet so I'm not totally sure what the traditional advice is for it. Is it supination?
2. When people say turn the key, or supinate to help with nose angle, is the advice to do it just before the hit or maintain it throughout the swing?

I've heard people who briefcase carry (pronation) will keep some of the pronation for more anhyzer, supinate back to flat for flat shots, or supinate passed flat for hyzers. This is what Gannon said when I asked him "are you always trying to supinate back to flat and then mostly use body angle for the release angle?" He said he does both.

3. So if pronation = more anhyzer, how can supination = more nose down instead of more hyzer? Or is it both?
4. If pouring the coffee (ulnar deviation) helps nose down, how can supination help with nose down? They are very different motions. I guess as the supination rotates the wrist it is changing the direction of the coffee pour so the changed direction could be the key.

Are you sure you don't have pronation/supination reversed? We are talking about Right-hand Back-hand swings right?

I am having a very hard time visualizing how supination can possibly lead to more hyzer.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Are you sure you don't have pronation/supination reversed? We are talking about Right-hand Back-hand swings right?

I am having a very hard time visualizing how supination can possibly lead to more hyzer.

I'm sure (supinate to hold a bowl of soup on your palm). I added a picture to the post.

For RHBH, pronation (pointing palm towards ground) produces briefcase carry (underside disc shown to side view) whereas supination (palm more towards sky) is the opposite of briefcase carry and shows the top side of the disc to the side view.

 

[RowingBoats]

Ah, looks like you added a picture, so I agree with the definitions, but still do not understand how supination adds hyzer. I personally do not really actively use my wrist to set the angle of the throw (hyzer/annie), but still can't really see this.

I think there are still some questions about where the 'nose' is, and this is going to vary some by person as well. I think that I mostly am a 'pour the coffee' person, but also might do a slight active supination through the release to control nose angle. I don't think I know enough about what I do to really comment in detail here, nose angle is one of those things that just takes a lot of trial/error and can be thrown off by a ton of different variables in a swing.

 

[RowingBoats]

I'm sure. I added a picture to the post.

For RHBH, pronation (pointing palm towards ground) produces briefcase carry (underside disc shown to side view) whereas supination (palm more towards sky) is the opposite of briefcase carry and shows the top side of the disc to the side view.

Are you talking about techniques early in the swing or precisely at the release of the disc then?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Are you talking about techniques early in the swing or precisely at the release of the disc then?

That's one of the questions. Idk when people say to supinate or turn the key when they are advising to do it. For briefcase carry (pronation) it's more obvious because you are overly pronated and staying overly pronated into the power pocket gives you more space to come tighter into the pocket without the side of the disc hitting your chest, so you must supinate later, on the way out of the power pocket.

But for people who do not briefcase carry, if someone says to turn the key or to supinate for nose angle, idk if they mean you to do it last second or hold it for longer.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

but still do not understand how supination adds hyzer

I added another video to show this. But if you agree that pronation adds anhyzer then it's logical that the opposite adds hyzer. But definitely easier to see.

I also don't do pronation or supination for release angle, I try to keep it neutral and use body angle, but when people say supinate for nose angle, I'm like, uh, isn't that going to hyzer? And it seems like it does if I exaggerate to see, but I'm waiting for a tech disc to get concrete verfication.

 

[RowingBoats]

That's one of the questions. Idk when people say to supinate or turn the key when they are advising to do it. For briefcase carry (pronation) it's more obvious because you are overly pronated and staying overly pronated into the power pocket gives you more space to come tighter into the pocket without the side of the disc hitting your chest, so you must supinate later, on the way out of the power pocket.

But for people who do not briefcase carry, if someone says to turn the key or to supinate for nose angle, idk if they mean you to do it last second or hold it for longer.

Ah, I gotcha.

Nothing but the exact moment of release truly matters. There are things people do to make it more likely/consistent that the release is nose-down, but 'carrying the briefcase' in the earlier parts of the swing does not directly impact nose angle.

I personally do not like adding this many variables to my swing, so I more or less have the disc held the way I plan to be holding it at release for the duration of my swing. This may not be 100% accurate if you looked at my swings in slow motion, but I don't deliberately make it a requirement to radically rotate my wrist from another position.

I feel like the 'set it and forget it' paradigm is probably where most people should start. If your swing has a consistent release point with some snap, you can play with nose angle a lot more effectively.

 

[RowingBoats]

I added another video to show this. But if you agree that pronation adds anhyzer then it's logical that the opposite adds hyzer. But definitely easier to see.

I also don't do pronation or supination for release angle, I try to keep it neutral and use body angle, but when people say supinate for nose angle, I'm like, uh, isn't that going to hyzer? And it seems like it does if I exaggerate to see, but I'm waiting for a tech disc to get concrete verfication.

I suppose I don't currently agree that pronation adds anhyzer lol Sorry if Im just misunderstanding you. If you hold a disc parallel to the ground and pronate, you are quite literally putting it on hyzer.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I feel like the 'set it and forget it' paradigm is probably where most people should start. If your swing has a consistent release point with some snap, you can play with nose angle a lot more effectively.

I agree but I'm still left questioning, how would supination help nose angle whether I set it and forget it or add it last moment.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I suppose I don't currently agree that pronation adds anhyzer lol Sorry if Im just misunderstanding you. If you hold a disc parallel to the ground and pronate, you are quite literally putting it on hyzer.

Did you watch the video of me showing it with a disc? You have to see the ending position of the disc because the elbow extends open which inverts the release angle.

So pronation with elbow up and elbow bent will have the side of the disc opposite from where you are holding is pointing towards the ground (hyzer) but then after you open the elbow and maintain the pronation, the side of the disc opposite from where you are holding is pointing up away from the ground (anhyzer).

 

[RowingBoats]

Did you watch the video of me showing it with a disc?

I just did. So...here is the screenshot of you saying the disc is on 'hyzer'. That is an anhyzer angle.

 

[RowingBoats]

I feel like I am fundamentally thinking about something in a way that you are not trying to describe, so I apologize if so lol.

I do think that at least part of this is caused by how many degrees of pronation/supination we are talking about. For myself, nose angle, from a neutral 0 degree arm perpendicular to the floor, with nearly maxed out ulnar deviation, only requires very small amounts of supination as a possible alteration for more nose-down.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I just did. So...here is the screenshot of you saying the disc is on 'hyzer'. That is an anhyzer angle.

View attachment 328953

Good call, that's just bad camera work and demonstration on my part, it's deceptive because we don't see the disc pivot. I reuploaded a cleaner demo video showing some pivot to actually see it.

 

[RowingBoats]

Good call, that's just bad camera work and demonstration on my part, it's deceptive because we don't see the disc pivot. I reuploaded a cleaner demo video showing some pivot to actually see it.

I can see what you are saying, but the way you rotate the disc out and your arm positions are not what I am talking about as the release point. But this does seem to confirm that you are talking about way, way more degrees of rotation than I ever mean if we are talking about pronation/supination to control nose-down.

At most I supinate at the hit a few degrees past neutral. Neutral being defined as in your image above, if you open the hand, it is perpendicular to the ground, nearly full ulnar deviation, then add a few degrees of supination.

My body position is probably 90% of how I control hyzer/anhyzer angles. I use the same technique to throw either one nose-down.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I can see what you are saying, but the way you rotate the disc out and your arm positions are not what I am talking about as the release point. But this does seem to confirm that you are talking about way, way more degrees of rotation than I ever mean if we are talking about pronation/supination to control nose-down.

At most I supinate at the hit a few degrees past neutral. Neutral being defined as in your image above, if you open the hand, it is perpendicular to the ground, nearly full ulnar deviation, then add a few degrees of supination.

My body position is probably 90% of how I control hyzer/anhyzer angles. I use the same technique to throw either one nose-down.

Yes of course it's an exaggeration, it's hard to see the effect clearly without exaggerating them to see the differences. Even with the exaggeration it was still hard to show it, lol, I had to refilm it multiple times.

I already said I use body angle too and not pronation and supination to control my release angle.

My point is not that you SHOULD use a lot of pronation and supination, my only point is that it seems like pronation adds more anhyzer while supination adds more hyzer instead of supination adding nose down. That's what I'm trying to figure out, why have I heard multiple times that supination adds nose down, either I'm missing something or they are.

If supination really does add nose down though, I want to know how, and I want to take advantage of some of it, hence why I'm trying to show what it seems to be doing to see if someone can show something otherwise.

 

[RowingBoats]

I think we are probably harboring significantly different models of what the release point looks like and how it works. I certainly don't want to say that I am correct and you are wrong, I think we are talking about different things entirely lol. Hope Im not coming off as argumentative, not at all my intention

Hopefully someone can help me understand if they disagree with my take and agree that pronation can lead to anhyzer. I feel like Im the wrong one to continue this for now lol.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think we are probably harboring significantly different models of what the release point looks like and how it works. I certainly don't want to say that I am correct and you are wrong, I think we are talking about different things entirely lol. Hope Im not coming off as argumentative, not at all my intention

What do you think is different about your model of release point.

The release point is hard to replicate accurately while standing still and doing it in slow motion. I don't think what I showed in the video for release point is exactly how it looks in reality but I thought it was close enough to demonstrate the effect supination and pronation likely has on release angle. But maybe that's wrong and hopefully someone can show how.

 

[Sewer bill]

Paging @Sheep with the high speed camera.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Paging @Sheep with the high speed camera.

In another thread sheep has said supination helps with nose down IIRC, so I'd love to see if he has that more clear view of an actual release point where supination can be exaggerated to show it exaggerates nose down instead of exaggerates hyzer.