taking away the 2 meter rule

[Steve West]

...
There's not a rule that says that "a disc that rolls here gets a penalty but one that lands here doesn't".
...

Careful. Some who read this might start pushing for one.

(More likely, the inverse. "My putt rolled away to OB. Wah! Wah! I shouldn't get a penalty!")

 

[roblee]

Forcing a tee throw so the hole is played as designed can be accomplished by placing a (single, double, triple) Mando close to the tee. Easy to see and hard to miss. Our trees are scarce, short, and fragile.We have 1 triple Mando at each of 2 local courses. They are about 15-20' from tee, 8'H x 8'W. They are readily accepted but require a technical & accurate throw-something that is hard to incorporate in our habitat. Here is one example. Originally, it was a short overhand that avoided all the trees with little challenge. Same idea could be used to restrict the undesired routes described in this thread.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/5537/0b2b9b11.jpg

 

[araytx]

Forcing a tee throw so the hole is played as designed can be accomplished by placing a (single, double, triple) Mando close to the tee. Easy to see and hard to miss. Our trees are scarce, short, and fragile.We have 1 triple Mando at each of 2 local courses. They are about 15-20' from tee, 8'H x 8'W. They are readily accepted but require a technical & accurate throw-something that is hard to incorporate in our habitat. Here is one example. Originally, it was a short overhand that avoided all the trees with little challenge. Same idea could be used to restrict the undesired routes described in this thread.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/5537/0b2b9b11.jpg

Roblee:


True. But in some places you have to physically construct the mando/double mando/triple mando. And if it is a city-owned course, not every parks & rec department is as amenable as others.

 

[zenbot]

We do play our lie. Our lie is directly below the disc.

You mean we don't play it where it lies. As we don't when a solid object prevents a stance. Or we land in casual water. Or a casual obstacle can't be moved. Or there are dangerous animals. Or, often, when we're within a meter of O.B. Or, for that matter, when the disc is suspended off the ground, but less than 2 meters high.

There's a difference between a fluky occurrence (good or bad), and a fluky rule. It's true that you can get a fluky roll and end up O.B. -- but that O.B. penalty applies to any disc that lands there. There's not a rule that says that "a disc that rolls here gets a penalty but one that lands here doesn't". With 2-meter, its a specific rule and penalty stroke for just that fluky occurrence.

Plus, the tree has already extracted its penalty, not as a penalty stroke by rule, but in the loss of distance and quite possibly an awkward lie.

At any rate, many of us older players have a lot of experience with the 2-meter penalty, and without. What the 2-meterers can't grasp is that it's not a character flaw, but acquired wisdom, that has led the vast majority to dispense with it.

It's absolutely ridiculous to have your disc land 20 feet above the ground and you pretend like you landed on the ground. Ball golf, although not defined strictly by 2 meters, allows you to play your lie. If you can't climb up the tree and hit your shot, you take a penalty by moving your original lie. Seems pretty simple. When you choose that your lie is unplayable, you take a penalty.

If you throw at a tree, intentionally or not, there is an inherent risk. You might get lucky or you might not.

 

[damagedLIVER]

It's absolutely ridiculous to have your disc land 20 feet above the ground and you pretend like you landed on the ground. Ball golf, although not defined strictly by 2 meters, allows you to play your lie. If you can't climb up the tree and hit your shot, you take a penalty by moving your original lie. Seems pretty simple. When you choose that your lie is unplayable, you take a penalty.

If you throw at a tree, intentionally or not, there is an inherent risk. You might get lucky or you might not.

YAY!!!

Another useless ball golf comparison:\

 

[DavidSauls]

It's valid....or at least will be, once ball golf wises up and starts running holes down twisting 10' wide alleys through thousands of trees, and stops playing with the sort of objects that we use to throw at our discs to dislodge our stuck discs.

 

[DavidSauls]

It's absolutely ridiculous to have your disc land 20 feet above the ground and you pretend like you landed on the ground. Ball golf, although not defined strictly by 2 meters, allows you to play your lie. If you can't climb up the tree and hit your shot, you take a penalty by moving your original lie. Seems pretty simple. When you choose that your lie is unplayable, you take a penalty.

If you throw at a tree, intentionally or not, there is an inherent risk. You might get lucky or you might not.

No more ridiculous than when a disc is stuck in a bush 2' off the ground, pretending it's on the ground and taking a stance there.

Then again, unlike golf, we don't propel the disc from where it lies -- we pick up the disc, take a stance, and propel it from a point a few feet away, with our hands. Maybe, just maybe, we're not playing golf.

The fact that a small minority find it ridiculous, and some moral issue with the lie being vertical (it's the direction and distance you threw it and where it came to rest, not that it came to rest on the ground, that applies) doesn't make it a fact -- just makes it a minority opinion.

The 2-meterers persist in this circular logic: It's a penalty because you shouldn't throw into a tree, and you shouldn't throw into the tree because you might get a penalty.

Or insinuate that it's some sort of moral weakness, trying to avoid penalties, to people who play courses will all sorts of water and other OB and mandos, which dole out plenty of penalties, none of which the enlightened sky's-the-limiters are trying to weasel out of. We're just distinguishing between logical penalties, and illogical ones. We've heard the arguments, and some of us played years under both systems, and reach a conclusion.

 

[tomsdiscs]

No more ridiculous than when a disc is stuck in a bush 2' off the ground, pretending it's on the ground and taking a stance there.

Then again, unlike golf, we don't propel the disc from where it lies -- we pick up the disc, take a stance, and propel it from a point a few feet away, with our hands. Maybe, just maybe, we're not playing golf.

The fact that a small minority find it ridiculous, and some moral issue with the lie being vertical (it's the direction and distance you threw it and where it came to rest, not that it came to rest on the ground, that applies) doesn't make it a fact -- just makes it a minority opinion.

The 2-meterers persist in this circular logic: It's a penalty because you shouldn't throw into a tree, and you shouldn't throw into the tree because you might get a penalty.

Or insinuate that it's some sort of moral weakness, trying to avoid penalties, to people who play courses will all sorts of water and other OB and mandos, which dole out plenty of penalties, none of which the enlightened sky's-the-limiters are trying to weasel out of. We're just distinguishing between logical penalties, and illogical ones. We've heard the arguments, and some of us played years under both systems, and reach a conclusion.

I am, and have always been a fan of David Sauls, he is one of a few who over time have consistently made thoughtful contributions to these forums.

My opinion, in general, the 2-meter rule is a test of ones math and logic skills.

Further, as California is becoming an over-populated desert, it makes me cringe when I see disc golfers stomp on bushes and trees when playing the disc from where it lands, the bushes and trees are dying off so fast in CA I want all discs moved from their lies as needed to preserve our dwindling vegetation.

I remember back in 2011 when we were preparing our local courses for Pro Worlds, that Dave Dunipace showed up and encouraged everybody to go easy on the trees and bushes when updating the layouts Pro Worlds.

 

[DavidSauls]

Further, as California is becoming an over-populated desert, it makes me cringe when I see disc golfers stomp on bushes and trees when playing the disc from where it lands, the bushes and trees are dying off so fast in CA I want all discs moved from their lies as needed to preserve our dwindling vegetation.

I remember back in 2011 when we were preparing our local courses for Pro Worlds, that Dave Dunipace showed up and encouraged everybody to go easy on the trees and bushes when updating the layouts Pro Worlds.

Wish I could loan you about 10,000 of our trees. We could certainly spare them.

It's a reminder of regional differences. Around here we have lots of trees, but unless we incorporate our cedars, none catch discs frequently enough for a penalty to dissuade throwers. And of the courses I frequent, there's only 1 cedar tree in play, and if you hit it you're already screwed, no penalty needed. As mentioned before, I've only played 1 hole in my life where throwing into a tree might be advantageous.

Sustainability -- ground compaction, stomping down underbrush, damaging trees -- is a much bigger issue than occasional penalty strokes, and varies from place to place, too. Though we get lots of rain here, so erosion and exposing tree roots is a problem.

 

[roblee]

Roblee:
True. But in some places you have to physically construct the mando/double mando/triple mando. And if it is a city-owned course, not every parks & rec department is as amenable as others.

Yes, we have a lot of trust and amicability with our P&R. Our mandos are constructed quite substantially by some talented fabricators & generous material donors. We are able to place them where they need to be and they are basically indestructible.

 

[araytx]

Yes, we have a lot of trust and amicability with our P&R. Our mandos are constructed quite substantially by some talented fabricators & generous material donors. We are able to place them where they need to be and they are basically indestructible.

NEAT. And understandable. Where is your (or is this) P&R located? Again, if that's what you have consider yourself fortunate. Just remember that not everyone all over the place can even PAY a professional to build -- because the every local P&R isn't the same about what they'll allow.

 

[txmxer]

NEAT. And understandable. Where is your (or is this) P&R located? Again, if that's what you have consider yourself fortunate. Just remember that not everyone all over the place can even PAY a professional to build -- because the every local P&R isn't the same about what they'll allow.

Yep. P&R won't let anyone build a bridge over the creek at ZBoaz

 

[roblee]

NEAT. And understandable. Where is your (or is this) P&R located?

Lubbock, TX. Holes 1 & 9 at Mae Simmons and Hole 5 at BIG Mac have constructed triple mandos. We have 9 other holes with well defined narrow fairways & low ceilings but are losing trees to drought at an alarming rate. Our original Mackenzie course is long but little technicality so we were at a disadvantage when traveling to tech courses. We think our community is developing a better skill level now. You played them all once, (2020) I think. I was shuttling coolers & putting out "brush fires" all weekend and didn't have a chance to meet you.

 

[txmxer]

Lubbock, TX. Holes 1 & 9 at Mae Simmons and Hole 5 at BIG Mac have constructed triple mandos. We have 9 other holes with well defined narrow fairways & low ceilings but are losing trees to drought at an alarming rate. Our original Mackenzie course is long but little technicality so we were at a disadvantage when traveling to tech courses. We think our community is developing a better skill level now. You played them all once, (2020) I think. I was shuttling coolers & putting out "brush fires" all weekend and didn't have a chance to meet you.

I'm a Red Raider. Hope to get back to Lubbock to give those courses a try some day.

 

[araytx]

Lubbock, TX. Holes 1 & 9 at Mae Simmons and Hole 5 at BIG Mac have constructed triple mandos. We have 9 other holes with well defined narrow fairways & low ceilings but are losing trees to drought at an alarming rate. Our original Mackenzie course is long but little technicality so we were at a disadvantage when traveling to tech courses. We think our community is developing a better skill level now. You played them all once, (2020) I think. I was shuttling coolers & putting out "brush fires" all weekend and didn't have a chance to meet you.

I'm a Red Raider. Hope to get back to Lubbock to give those courses a try some day.

Absolutely. I have a son, daughter-in-law, and two grandkids in Lubbock. I've played Simmons and both Mac's before. Those mandos are well-constructed -- very clean and able to easily tell visibly when missed. Parks & Rec in Lubbock is clearly very supportive.