The best post you will ever read on DGR

[zj1002]

Blake wrote this a few years ago. Not sure if it will spur any helpful sort of discussion but I feel it should be considered more often around here. Some people just don't need to learn everything that is thrown at them here. It ends up making things worse when you don't keep it simple. It sounds kind of elitist but once you teach enough face-to-face lessons what Blake is saying becomes pretty clear.

This is going to come off as a rant but it really isn't. Mainly trying to help guide people.

In the past two years I've come to notice that there's a lot of people trying to beat the natural learning curve for their given athleticism and body awareness.

I'm finding a ton of techniques lately that just aren't right for the people trying to do them... but they did them because "they read that they should do them."

I originally did the hammer drills because anyone can do them, and anyone can apply them. Also, because that level of feel and coordination makes it so much easier for them to develop advanced techniques.

The original License to Drive article on the main site was written in the mid 90's. Gazelle, Cyclone, Polaris LS era. It should supply sufficient information to throw 350'. It did in 2000 when I started, and it should today as well. In actuality, it should teach someone to throw farther than 350.

With the more advanced discussion on snap, arcs, pivots, etc. that has developed over the past few years (and didn't exist until recently), it seems it is steering newer players down the wrong path.
These techniques are just too advanced and require too much coordination and body awareness to where someone who can't throw 350' probably can't do them and attempts to do them will be counter productive.

A few examples:
-A strong heel pivot is the result of a very strong throwing form. A strong heel pivot will not make your throwing form strong.
-The disc pivot is the biproduct of a very defined and strong motion. You should not try to force it to happen by loosening your grip.

What I have been seeing a lot of is the equivalent of someone who started to play basketball 3/6/12 months ago and are now trying to perform hardaway's utep-two-step. if you haven't already mastered dribbling with both hands, you will fail.

What I am finding is that anyone who can hit the standard plateau, e.g. 350-ish teebird power, 380-ish wraith power, etc., is able to pickup the advanced techniques with relative ease and minor retooling.
Those who try to perform the advanced techniques before that plateau, ends up ruining their form into requiring a complete rebuild just to get something decent.

If you aren't there yet, save yourself a headache and work on the basics. When you have those mastered, it's time to move on.

Source: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24905

 

[B3NDER]

Seems like great advice, regardless of how you interpret the "tone" of the message. (in regards to the elitist comment)

 

[zj1002]

Seems like great advice, regardless of how you interpret the "tone" of the message. (in regards to the elitist comment)

Well I was just saying that because the hardest thing I've had to tell multiple people is they just don't have the athleticism and coordination to get any better. It comes down to that eventually. Its no reason not keep trying to help someone, it just usually needs work before advanced stuff comes into play.

 

[Three Putt]

I bring this up a lot to people who ask me why I still play since I'm horrible. The fact is that it is no surprise that I'm horrible. I was an awful baseball player, a poor softball player, a laughable tennis player, an embarrassing ball golfer, etc. The sports that I played when I was young required me to dedicate hours of practice over years to be OK. In the end, I'm not a good athlete. If I could throw 400' and make everything inside 50', that would be really, really weird given my athletic history.

This is why I don't post a video of my form. I'm going to get a lot of "your hips are too something" and "your heel is blah blah blah" bable that is beyond my coordination to control. Some thing are just what they are.

 

[Qikly]

It's a good conversation to have.

I'm a relatively casual player who hits 350' fairly easy, 375' on distance lines, and can push a little further. I've had a few injuries this past year that kept me off the course for about 5 months or so collectively. Right now I'm only playing once a week or two.

I was aggressively trying to change my form early this winter and found that I just wasn't practicing regularly enough to do so. I was generating way more force in the rotation than I could control through the release point, and my drives were going every which way. An afternoon of fieldworking with mids dialed that release point back in and put what I was trying to do in perspective. I'll likely never be a super serious player, and I realized unless that day comes I can't approach tweaking my form like I am.

That's not to say I can't improve. I love practicing disc golf. I just have to keep in mind that more advanced techniques are, as you say, for the more advanced players. Maybe the day will come where I'm woodshedding more, but I can't pretend it's here if it isn't.

Good thoughts.

 

[Pbmercil]

Definitely a great thing to keep in mind. There is a significant athletic learning curve in throwing discs. More information is useless if you don't have the muscle memory.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Very fair points by Blake. I think it does beg the question though, can or should we then be telling people in form requests that they aren't yet athletic enough for a form review beyond the basics?

I'm not saying that's what you're advocating - but I think there's potentially a point where you say, "spend 6 months working on the basics" and bring that to the table.

I threw daily fieldwork for nearly a year before coming to the forum with video. It was still a brutal couple months of daily work from that point, but I also was at least somewhat aware of what was going on.

We do tend to get side-tracked with the tiny details, I think often with the anticipation that some magic trick will unlock a hidden 50-100' extra feet. I play with the motions of my throw every time I throw fieldwork. Wrists, grips, nose angles... it's amazing what I learn just by dumb luck, which I then realize is something that I've read but never understood.

Long ramble to say, I wish I could be around here more often - I'm interviewing for new job, it's been extremely stressful and even though I got the offer, it's lower than I hoped and now I'm negotiating my future via email. Fuuuuuuun.

 

[grotto]

I bring this up a lot to people who ask me why I still play since I'm horrible. The fact is that it is no surprise that I'm horrible. I was an awful baseball player, a poor softball player, a laughable tennis player, an embarrassing ball golfer, etc. The sports that I played when I was young required me to dedicate hours of practice over years to be OK. In the end, I'm not a good athlete. If I could throw 400' and make everything inside 50', that would be really, really weird given my athletic history.

This is why I don't post a video of my form. I'm going to get a lot of "your hips are too something" and "your heel is blah blah blah" bable that is beyond my coordination to control. Some thing are just what they are.

I agree, while I'm always working on my game and form, when you get those, you should do this, that, the other thing and change your grip while your at it, and, and, and.

Enough already! STFU! I'm trying to have fun here! And you're hindering my personal fun practice.

I do like blake's thread and thank HUB's work too, always pick up something.

 

[eegor]

Whenever I give advise to someone, it usually starts with "keep it simple". The less you move, the less you can mess up. It takes a lot of practice to create muscle memory. Practicing incorrectly is the biggest impediment to progress. I believe that a lot of people are trying to do too much and not keeping it simple and natural. Everyone is different. The throwing motion should be comfortable and repeatable to obtain an acceptable degree of consistency. Distance will come with small tweaks to your natural form. Not everyone can drive over 300 feet. That's reality.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Well I was just saying that because the hardest thing I've had to tell multiple people is they just don't have the athleticism and coordination to get any better. It comes down to that eventually. Its no reason not keep trying to help someone, it just usually needs work before advanced stuff comes into play.

this can really help some people tho. We played a lot with a buddies dad who was no weak guy by any means but his body was old and beat up just not made for throwing 400' disc golf shots and running around rolling hill courses etc.

That's the best part about disc golf though too as he also can join us for an entire day of 8 hours playing and we all have a great time assuming we don't hit up the biggest courses in town

 

[DanJon]

Some people also need to realize that they don't need to follow this advice to the extreme. Learn the basics and work that into a form that works for you.

I keep the basic framework in mind and throw in a way that's comfortable for me. Smooth, relaxed yet deliberate with my motions. You avoid injury that way too. I see some people over doing and forcing their motions.

 

[slowplastic]

I kind of look at it as Blake presented it...too much too soon and it's counterproductive.

You wouldn't advise someone to pick up a Destroyer if they throw 300'. Don't get them to go down the rabbit hole of hammer pounds/arcs at 300' either. There are larger body motions and timings that are much more important at that point and will always be a factor in their future form. Know when to start introducing the more advanced techniques...they are called "advanced techniques" in those threads for a reason.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Very fair points by Blake. I think it does beg the question though, can or should we then be telling people in form requests that they aren't yet athletic enough for a form review beyond the basics?

No. You're always athletic enough to work on the next technique. Just not the twelfth technique down the line.

 

[Streets]

You guys keep mentioning basic techniques and advanced techniques. Can someone provide some examples of what they would be?

 

[Jay Dub]

You guys keep mentioning basic techniques and advanced techniques. Can someone provide some examples of what they would be?

Examples were given in the OP.

I originally did the hammer drills because anyone can do them, and anyone can apply them. Also, because that level of feel and coordination makes it so much easier for them to develop advanced techniques.

The original License to Drive article on the main site was written in the mid 90's. Gazelle, Cyclone, Polaris LS era. It should supply sufficient information to throw 350'. It did in 2000 when I started, and it should today as well. In actuality, it should teach someone to throw farther than 350.

With the more advanced discussion on snap, arcs, pivots, etc. that has developed over the past few years (and didn't exist until recently), it seems it is steering newer players down the wrong path.
These techniques are just too advanced and require too much coordination and body awareness to where someone who can't throw 350' probably can't do them and attempts to do them will be counter productive.

A few examples:
-A strong heel pivot is the result of a very strong throwing form. A strong heel pivot will not make your throwing form strong.
-The disc pivot is the biproduct of a very defined and strong motion. You should not try to force it to happen by loosening your grip.

 

[Timeetyo]

Very fair points by Blake. I think it does beg the question though, can or should we then be telling people in form requests that they aren't yet athletic enough for a form review beyond the basics?

I'm not saying that's what you're advocating - but I think there's potentially a point where you say, "spend 6 months working on the basics" and bring that to the table.

I threw daily fieldwork for nearly a year before coming to the forum with video. It was still a brutal couple months of daily work from that point, but I also was at least somewhat aware of what was going on.

We do tend to get side-tracked with the tiny details, I think often with the anticipation that some magic trick will unlock a hidden 50-100' extra feet. I play with the motions of my throw every time I throw fieldwork. Wrists, grips, nose angles... it's amazing what I learn just by dumb luck, which I then realize is something that I've read but never understood.

Long ramble to say, I wish I could be around here more often - I'm interviewing for new job, it's been extremely stressful and even though I got the offer, it's lower than I hoped and now I'm negotiating my future via email. Fuuuuuuun.

Here is how I view this as I've spent way too much time reading up on advanced techniques and I still have other issues preventing my growth.

I know when I post a video I have 12(+) issues that separate me from McBeth. Although I've read details about them - I know that (8+) of them are things that are beyond my current level and meaningless unless I fix the first 4.

So, when I post a video - I want to hear that of all the issues - these 4 are the big items that are holding me back. Go fix this / practice this drill / etc. and until you fix these - we don't need to worry about any of the others.

If after a month of practice I need to hear that I still have 3 of those 4 issues to fix and still can't work on the advanced techniques - that is fine with me and what I need to hear.

 

[Puckstopper]

It's a good conversation to have.

I'm a relatively casual player who hits 350' fairly easy, 375' on distance lines, and can push a little further.

That's not to say I can't improve. I love practicing disc golf. I just have to keep in mind that more advanced techniques are, as you say, for the more advanced players. Maybe the day will come where I'm woodshedding more, but I can't pretend it's here if it isn't.

Good thoughts.

This is about where I am, except I DON'T love practicing. I love playing, and play lots of solo rounds where I don't keep score, work on specific techniques, etc, but I know it's not the kind of practice that will let me get better quickly.

My issue is that given my age (late 30's), physical condition (need to lose about 50 lbs to be happy) and the wear and tear that other activities take on my body (hockey beats up my knees, hips and lower back, and real golf takes its toll on my lower back and elbow) my back, knees and arm just won't hold up to tons of field practice on top of playing almost daily when whether permits.

I'm committing this winter to working on things I can do to help out when the weather breaks and I can get back on the course (eating better, stretching, getting back into lifting weights, etc..) but at some point I think each player has to decide whether they care if they get any better. I'm not a tournament player, I'm competitive within my group of friends, and maybe that's enough. Things to think about as I wait (im)patiently for the snow to melt and the weather to warm.

Edit: ZJ, btw, I didn't think the post was elitist at all. It mirrored the internal discussion I shared above, and has given me extra food for thought. Maybe I don't have to give up on improving, but rather accept slower improvements.

 

[runningDoc]

I regularly play with a 1000+ rated innova sponsored player (and sometimes two other 1000+ players) and you can see these guys are basically gifted athletes who train seriously.

I had a a football in my car and we started throwing passes and the really good players had no problem getting 50yard perfect spirals out there after a little warm up.

they still have that "relaxed drink beers and have fun" vibe while playing tag rounds but when it comes down to it they still train hard and work on their games constantly. At my local course they'll often just stay at hole one (which has 2 practice baskets and two alternate baskets) and play a modified short course with 5 different tee positions and treat everything like its "Par 2" meaning you're practicing 190-275ft upshots to get to the pin and hole out in two shots. before a shot and after even when someone messes up a shot (even if the result was good) they'll all discuss what are the best options/shots/discs reasoning. It reminds me a lot of how medical rounds in the hospital work or how we used to practice in varsity baseball and tennis (with everyone doing the same drills and coaches discussing the why's and hows).

I was lucky enough to get in with these guys early (I started playing in late April) and it was tough at first because sometimes you just want to go out and play a fun round and not have a 1000+ rated player discerning eyes on you on almost every shot. if you made a dumb mistake they'll let you know immediately. But I realized that it was a great way to improve quickly and it reminded me of how high school and college varsity sports practices used to be. So when I get a text from them that they are about to play Par 2 or training rounds at a secret local course (its in the large backyard of one of the players ) if I have time I'm going even if it could be a tough training session.

 

[Broken Shoulder]

This is about where I am, except I DON'T love practicing. I love playing, and play lots of solo rounds where I don't keep score, work on specific techniques, etc, but I know it's not the kind of practice that will let me get better quickly.

My issue is that given my age (late 30's), physical condition (need to lose about 50 lbs to be happy) and the wear and tear that other activities take on my body (hockey beats up my knees, hips and lower back, and real golf takes its toll on my lower back and elbow) my back, knees and arm just won't hold up to tons of field practice on top of playing almost daily when whether permits.

I'm committing this winter to working on things I can do to help out when the weather breaks and I can get back on the course (eating better, stretching, getting back into lifting weights, etc..) but at some point I think each player has to decide whether they care if they get any better. I'm not a tournament player, I'm competitive within my group of friends, and maybe that's enough. Things to think about as I wait (im)patiently for the snow to melt and the weather to warm.

Edit: ZJ, btw, I didn't think the post was elitist at all. It mirrored the internal discussion I shared above, and has given me extra food for thought. Maybe I don't have to give up on improving, but rather accept slower improvements.

I have issues with my shoulder (duh, screen name), and my knees and back also. So I hear what you're saying about overuse, and throwing too much. What I've taken to doing is taking my practice basket to a football field. I can put the basket out on the field and then create lines to the basket by using the goalposts as obstacles. So field work, for me, isn't just throwing drive after drive. I work on upshots at different angles, mid shots, rollers, putting, drives, etc. I do a lot of the shorter stuff to warm up, and throw drives once I know I'm stretched out and loose, and take breaks between sets with the drivers to putt, or flick upshots, or whatever. You can make your own little Par 2 game out of it, and work on a lot of aspects in a pretty short time. It's made practice really fun, and often, I like doing this instead of going to the course for a round, as I can do it at my own pace with no one else around.
It's also a really good way to test discs against each other and make bag determinations.
Just an idea if practice really feels like a chore.

 

[scarpfish]

Can any of us improve our game by doing these technique drills religiously? Absolutely.

Does it mean we chronically 800 range rated joes are going to be winning Open division events one day if we do? Theoretically possible I suppose, but not likely and much like most people who play ball golf, pickup basketball, softball, bowling, whathaveyou, I think we've made peace with that fact of life.