The Newest Greatest thing you just figured out

[7ontheline]

I'm having better luck putting on a slight hyzer. My putt is hitting more chains and my confidence is growing now that my blow byes aren't going as far.

 

[7ontheline]

HOLY SHIT, JR almost has 10,000 posts :!:

 

[PMantle1]

HOLY SHIT, JR almost has 10,000 posts :!:

Imagine the number of words!

 

[JHern]

Golf-like games have a certain dynamic:

->The worse you shoot, the more throws you make, the more practice you get, the more you improve.

->On the flip side, the better you shoot, the fewer throws you make, the less practice you get, you don't improve as much.

So if all you did was play rounds, and nothing else, then you'd fall into an equilibrium between these two self-correcting dynamic responses, but your game will be in a rut and it stagnates or improves at an unacceptably slow rate.

The only way to move the bar higher and break out of this rut is to practice throwing and putting outside of playing rounds, so that you get a lot of practice even if you play well during rounds. The more you practice basic shots on their own (not in a round), the more you break out of this cycle and improve your game.

Practice!

 

[bents]

JHern, if I'm playing solo, and I throw a good throw, I like to repeat it with a copy of the same disc for practice. This way I get the best of both worlds. Also, you can avoid the downsides of good throws that you're describing by playing for a certain amount of time, or until you're tired, instead of stopping after 18 holes.

That said, I think I learn way more from field practice than from rounds. In the field I can do the same thing 20 times in a row if needed, until it's consistent.

 

[JR]

While dgdave has the most posts i'm pretty certain i have written more characters than anyone here.

 

[inthedrift]

While dgdave has the most posts i'm pretty certain i have written more characters than anyone here.

without a doubt JR

 

[7ontheline]

While dgdave has the most posts i'm pretty certain i have written more characters than anyone here.

without a doubt JR

:wave:

 

[Star Shark]

Yeah, JR is catching up with Stancil Johnson now...

 

[Widdershins]

Golf-like games have a certain dynamic:

->The worse you shoot, the more throws you make, the more practice you get, the more you improve.

->On the flip side, the better you shoot, the fewer throws you make, the less practice you get, you don't improve as much.

So if all you did was play rounds, and nothing else, then you'd fall into an equilibrium between these two self-correcting dynamic responses, but your game will be in a rut and it stagnates or improves at an unacceptably slow rate.

The only way to move the bar higher and break out of this rut is to practice throwing and putting outside of playing rounds, so that you get a lot of practice even if you play well during rounds. The more you practice basic shots on their own (not in a round), the more you break out of this cycle and improve your game.

Practice!

Interesting stuff here. I have never heard it described this way. Like most broad statements it has some limitations, perhaps.

I too am a big fan of practice. In my 20th year in the game, during which I have always practiced more (much more?, much much more?) than most of my peers, I still practice. While I see the benefits of practice I know that some very fine players don't practice at all and yet make improvements.

Most players play the game for fun. Since playing is more fun than practice some don't practice. But skill acquisition can happen during rounds, especially if the there are lots and lots of rounds being played. I remember asking one of my early teachers what he did to get so good. He told me he was unemployed for a time and played every day all day.

The more physically talented the player the more he can get away without practicing. Will a gifted player who doesn't practice ever be as good as if he had practiced? I would say "no" but of course we will never know for sure.

All practice is not equal. One thing that most forms of practice lack that a round does not is PERFORMANCE UNDER PRESSURE. Performance under pressure may be the most valuable of all the skills. But unless practice happens under pressure, practice does little to improve this skill. For this reason I like to practice with others and when I can lure others to join me I create practice games. Games have 2 advantages: they make practice more fun and make practice train the skill of performance under pressure.

So if you compare two players of relatively equal current skills who spend about the same amount of time with their frisbeee addiction, one who only plays rounds and one who plays AND practices, who will improve faster? The one who also practices will get in lots more throws, for sure. So his base potential should rise faster but unless that translates into better scores in actual competition it really doesn't matter.

For players without fabulous physical talents practice can elevate their games to places otherwise unobtainable. When I lost my backhand game to a bum knee as an Am 2 (Intermediate in today's terms) it never occurred to me I might rise to become a cashing Pro as a forehand dominant player. I thought forehand was a temporary diversion until my knee recovered. My early experience taught me that forehands into the wind were impossible. A thousand hours of practice later I know they are merely very difficult.

 

[JHern]

...
->The worse you shoot, the more throws you make, the more practice you get, the more you improve.
->On the flip side, the better you shoot, the fewer throws you make, the less practice you get, you don't improve as much.
...
Practice!

Interesting stuff here. I have never heard it described this way. Like most broad statements it has some limitations, perhaps...

Very much agree with everything you said. This conception is most accurate within the regime in which I play disc golf, which is limited to a certain frequency of rounds (I'm employed, have a career, I'm a father, and I have a lot of other irons in the fire). I'm not a natural at this game, for me to get better I need to practice, and when I do it pays off, big time. Also, if I could play a round almost every day, I'd be killing it! But alas, I can only put together enough time for 1-2 rounds/week (often not complete rounds, although my home course has 29 holes), and these are usually somewhat formalized (doubles, weeklies, monthlies, etc.), so I can't throw extra shots. I also have no opporunities to play catch, which is critical for developing the short game. When I previously lived next to a big open seldom-used field, I could throw for 30 minutes per day, and my game improved drastically...now I would have to drive to one, which basically means that it never happens.

I know what it's like to be really good at something, such that I don't need a great deal of practice to be at the top. But even in these areas I need to spend time staying up on the latest stuff, and always working new angles to have a greater impact and realize my potential. Similarly, all the top disc golf pros I've met unanimously spend a great deal of time practicing, and many spend some effort on physical conditioning in the off-season (especially if they don't already have a day job that provides it). They could throw 1020 without practicing, but with a ton of practice on top of that, they can get over 1030 and sometimes even higher. Every little bit helps, especially with the competition becoming ever greater!

 

[bents]

When your wrist is extending before the snap, you want it to be strongly opening until it's neutral, right? And when it gets to neutral you want it suddenly strong in the other direction, causing tendon bounce, if I understand.

So to that end I thought of this exercise. You watch Star Trek: The Next Generation, with your feet on the coffee table. Then you hold a dumbbell with both hands. Rest your forearms on your legs as shown. At this angle, there's the most resistance when the wrist is closed about 30 degrees of neutral, and you can stop when you get to neutral, after a wide enough movement.

Anyway what do you guys think? Mark Ellis is always mentioning how some people are naturally better than us mortals because of their good wrists, so I thought this might push us in the right direction.

Edit: the image was obnoxiously huge so I took it down. Here's a link: http://i.pgu.me/3InbIDJC_original.jpg

 

[JR]

Sharky i have a loooot of improvement and healing to do or conversely every other old fart needs to get worse by a lot before i can think of catching up to the achievements of Doc Johnson.

Bents that exercise will help with muscle power but not necessarily the twitch muscles that are good for snapping. Cable plyometric exercise throwing weight balls up with the hands and throwing weighted discs or weight plates work too. There are different kinds of snapping movements. You described to most common one but hyper spin has a stiffer wrist that does not bend back at all and snaps to the right of wrist neutral position. Not everyone can do that safely without stretching and warming up well so limbr people might have a safety margin here. I know i do having too mobile wrists for angles control with non gorilla arms for achieving pro level wrist control with muscle power. I need to eat more spinach.

 

[PMantle1]

The Newest Greatest thing you just figured out

I've been throwing too hard. Or, throwing wrong. As I've posted about, I had an event a while back involving a lot of pain to my right side. Played a bit forehand to avoid reinjury. I have been feeling so good lately that I decided to play backhand today, but at what I felt like to be 75%. If I had encountered any discomfort at all, I was going to stop.

Shot a new personal best by 1 stroke.

Yes, most of my distance drives were shorter than normal, but not by much at all. One, the longest hole I play, was every bit as long as my previous longest drives there. Very slight helping wind and a hyzer flipped DX Beast just seemed to never want to come down.

I plan to stay at that effort level for a bit. See what happens and try to avoid pain.

 

[7ontheline]

Inside 25', I'm aiming my hyzered putt directly at the pole. At this close range I'm not having issues fading out on the left and my right chain outs have greatly decreased.

Edit: 500 posts equals a new rank!

 

[bsnone1]

I don't remember the thread where I found the information but someone a while back compared the elbow chop to a ball golf swing (read the thread about 3 days ago) and for whatever reason, that allowed me to create SO MUCH MORE acceleration on my shots. Instant 50 ft. Pretty awesome! All of a a sudden my towel drills were snapping correctly (finally) and it was instant D on the course. For me, I can visualize that the elbow chop is like the start of the down swing of a golf club and that all of the acceleration comes from there - leading to the explosion at the end.

It's kind of amazing what works for some people. I played ball golf for 20 years before picking up disc golf and that one line has helped as much as anything.

Now to consistently get the nose down and tackle putting.

 

[JHern]

....Mark Ellis is always mentioning how some people are naturally better than us mortals because of their good wrists...

Blake recommends taking up carpentry. Many of the great players have a background in something like this, one of my buddies can crush like nobody else (he is thinking about training for max distance) and he is a painter (holds a large brush or sprayer all day). See how far a mechanic, roofer, etc., can throw a disc relative to a desk jockey like most of us posting online.

 

[bents]

....Mark Ellis is always mentioning how some people are naturally better than us mortals because of their good wrists...

Blake recommends taking up carpentry...

At least us desk jockies have enough experience reading technical stuff that we can read JR and understand him most of the time. But yeah I used to work in HVAC during the summers and it always put me in decent shape. But some of the dudes there that did that year-round were insanely strong. Like carrying 100 lbs of awkward sheet metal up a ladder into a 125F attic. And then bending it with their hands when the flanges didn't match up quite right.

Also, today I was at my local course, Oak Grove Park in Pasadena CA, and the big yearly tournament's tomorrow, so the pros were there practicing the course. Paul McBeth was ahead of me and I watched him hit a tree and it made me feel better.

 

[7ontheline]

Paul McBeth was ahead of me and I watched him hit a tree and it made me feel better.

Even top pros miss inside the circle, so stop beating myself up, keep focused, and bang the next one.

 

[luma1]

I had enough of sitting inside at home two days ago, but I still thought that this might not be the perfedt time to practice my backhand because of all the snow outside. So I figured a forehand might come in pretty handy too. Until now I only got out hard 180' forehand hyzers and short approaches because with longer forehands my disc would flutter really really hard. wo days ago was the day when I finally found what was my mistake, and I think that might help some other guys too.

I will try to describe this as good as possible (and as good as my English allows me to do it), I hope its understandeable...

I never reached back very far, so that wasn't the problem, also the elbow was near the body like with my golf swing, so that was not the issue as well. The trouble was that just before snapping the disc I would let my wrist go back a little (like when you hammer a nail into the wall, you will always take the hammer back and before hitting the nail you will let the wrist go back a little so you can generate more power) which resulted also in a drop-down motion of the wrist which put the disc on a hard hyzer angle. Trying to throw a straight release from there would always let the disc flutter like hell.
Yesterday I thought, well maybe its easier to just hold the disc on the angle you want to release it on. Then just take the disc back, make the throwing motion with your arm, and DON'T do anything else than just give the disc some spin by snapping with the wrist. Never do any move with your wrist before the snap. That's all it takes. No moving back to create power or anything. Just hold the disc at the side of your body like when you release it, keep it in your hand like that and the simply move the arm back and forth and just snap your wrist at the end.

It's just such an awesome feeling to have that forehand. I still need time to figure it out with putters and some Mids, but I can now say, that I get a controlled forehand out around 250-270' and when I try to snap it as hard as I can even over 300'. Love it