The Secret Technique... almost complete

[x-out1]

another clue that might help you.

rollers and anhyzers seem to up the snap efficiency, but flat or hyzers seem to lack the same torque.

 

[Agricolae]

another clue that might help you.

rollers and anhyzers seem to up the snap efficiency, but flat or hyzers seem to lack the same torque.

Bingo! I've recently been wondering the same thing. I've presumed I get a better pull on my putters (feeling the weight of the disc) because the deeper rim (kc aviars) allows me to hang on longer and that with drivers it's been a lack of grip strength + timing issue.

But yeah, anhyzers do seem to up my snap (term used loosely in my case) efficiency with drivers, if I remember to tilt my wrist down (handshake position).

This afternoon I'll test pull height on flat throws with Teebirds.

 

[Blake_T1]

anhyzers and rollers are assisted by gravity in establishing the correct pace of the pull.

hyzers and flat throws can have just as much if not more snap, but it's harder to "feel it" vs. a throw that involves a downward motion.

 

[x-out1]

finally made the leap to the next level. i'm not sure yet how to report the difference and how others can adopt it, but i'm sure i'll have something in the next couple of weeks.

a light went off and i can now apply this to every type of throw (e.g. putting, sidearm, off hand backhand, etc.). now i'm hoping for 550+ before the end of the year.

 

[Blake_T1]

Nice. If gunning for 550' does that mean you are breaking 500'?

 

[x-out1]

Nice. If gunning for 550' does that mean you are breaking 500'?

with 169g destroyers and 175 wraiths on higher flex lines i'm able to squeak a few out to 500 every now and again. before this i was probably stuck around 450-470. the best part about this new power surge is the fact that i can now take fairway drivers on low lines to hit my previous high line distance driver maxes.

550 is just a number, what i'm really looking for is a near perfect hit and the ability to reach 450ft holes with hyzers. 550 in an open field on crazy lines isn't something i'm working towards, thats just a result of the timing and hit i'm attempting to obtain.

the changes i've made have helped, but i feel ive lost some acceleration that i believe i will gain back with more reps. i also feel like i'm just scratching the surface of an even stronger hammer pound.

 

[Moseley]

550 is just a number, what i'm really looking for is a near perfect hit and the ability to reach 450ft holes with hyzers.

don't we all

Perfectly stated.

 

[Blake_T1]

X-out, have you tried fiddling with dan's rail i posted in the myth of disc pivot thread? That is an easy way to build more angular velocity on the outer edge of the disc.

 

[x-out1]

X-out, have you tried fiddling with dan's rail i posted in the myth of disc pivot thread? That is an easy way to build more angular velocity on the outer edge of the disc.

i have read the thread a few times, but it didn't hit home until i felt it myself. i'm sure everyone could use more leverage, but i don't think that is my problem at the moment. it feels like i've lost some of the acceleration i used to have, and if i were to regain the acceleration i could make another 20+ft jump.

when i'm pulling and hitting properly everything feels very compact and happens much further away from my body than i previously thought was possible. i'm able to get into the power pocket and everything happens with such ease. i think my previous swing was mostly strong arming/"rounding" with a strong half hit, and a very small portion where i was able to leverage the disc. it sounds awful when i write it out like that because it was easy to be accurate and the distance was pretty good, but after i switched it up the new stroke is much more efficient and takes less effort.

 

[Mr. Wessels]

I see people haven't responded to this thread since October, so I hope I haven't missed out on my chance to ask questions and get some feedback. I started playing dg about five years ago, but I never got very good at it and kind of gave up and stopped playing for awhile. But now I've returned to the sport and have been doing a lot of practice with these hammer pound drills. The drills themselves have helped me develop what I think is a good feel for the sensation of the weight shift/loading and unloading in the "pocket." I can also get a good, loud clap out of the old towel-snap drill (no disc in hand). However, when I try to turn that hammer-pound/towel-snap motion into an actual throw (out in the practice field), I run into trouble.

I think my main problem is that I don't really have a good sense of how everything is supposed to feel when it all comes together; that, and I've experimented with so many different types of techniques for throwing over the years that my brain has trouble sorting through all the movements and honing in on the good and necessary ones. I'll get what seems like a strong backhand throw from a standstill with one motion and one feel at the hit, but then on the next throw I'll get a similar flight with a throw that executes and even feels totally different. So my brain doesn't know which throw or feeling to pursue. And that's my reason for this post. I want to know what sort of sensation(s) I should pursue with these bh standstill throws.

I think I can narrow down my good throws to two distinct styles--each with their own sensations. This interpretation never occurred to me until one of Blake's quotes in this thread got me thinking that what I am perhaps experiencing is difference between the "Swedish" technique and his "Secret" one.

Here's how I'd describe them:
Style #1: A substantial amount of shoulder rotation and follow through seems necessary for a good throw. I rotate my shoulders to open w/ the disc starting near the right pec and the disc moves forward. My elbow is out in front and stays very bent up to and even through the hit (elbow only opens slightly). The upper arm feels completely rigid in the "pocket," and the elbow feels locked at the hit. The hit feels like this: the grip fingers seem to come off easily except for the index. The index feels lots of pressure from my thumb and even more from the inside of the rim at ~the 5-6 o'clock position of the disc, at which point I am almost fully open—facing my target— and pulling back hard on the disc w/ my upper arm and shoulder, almost like I am trying to pry it away from someone in front of me (but w/o using elbow, because that elbow is bent and locked). It feels like someone is tugging back at the other end. The disc leaves with tons of spin. It feels like it ejected from my thumb/index pinch. At no point in the throw does my wrist feel like it opens much beyond neutral, and it feels like it is either neutral or closed right at the moment of ejection. My thumb snaps down on my index after ejection and my arm/body follows through automatically. If I do this right, it seems almost impossible not to follow through.

Style #2: Shoulder rotation to open seems almost unnecessary; in fact, I seem to get a much better feeling if I keep myself perpendicular to the target and do not open up towards it. My motion is more or less restricted to the movement I learned in the hammer pound and towel snap drills. If I try to take any steps or turn my shoulders much, I automatically seem to revert to some version of Style #1. The hit, which I rarely achieve, feels like this: no distinct pressure point (like the pinch of Style #1), more like a pressure "zone"—vis., pressure of the rim against some or all of my fingers which turns into a feeling of pressure against the base of my thumb/palm. The disc feels like it almost rolls/bounces off this thumb base/palm and my wrist feels like it is open. I do not feel like I am pulling back on anything at all; instead I feel like I am almost pushing it forward, spinning or even "rolling" the edge of the disc with my palm as my wrist is snapping back to closed (which it does automatically). I am not facing my target when the disc leaves; as a result, it seems like the disc leaves sideways from my right side. The disc leaves with lots of spin, but apparently not much translational velocity (I think I'm doing something wrong?). None of my body seems to have any tendency to follow through (clockwise) after the disc leaves. My elbow does not keep opening, in fact, it closes (along w/ the wrist). My right forearm and wrist tend to want to finish pointing up and facing me, and my weight tends to want to finish back (over my left, instead of right leg).

Am I on the right track with any of my descriptions of the sensations at the hit and the motions leading to them? Am I correct in thinking Style #1 is probably the Swedish variation and Style #2 is more like Blake's Secret technique? Which of the styles should I try to develop and which sensations should I pursue in practice? I'm thinking this Secret technique seems like the preferable option; but I have a lot of trouble actually getting throws from it. Often the disc leaves at an extreme angle to the right of my target line, or else it doesn't spin much and goes like 30'. It's not clear to me exactly where/how to apply pressure to the disc at the moment when it is fully loaded (when the timing is right)—and neither the towel drill nor hammer pound drill can teach this because those drills do not involve a disc actually leaving the hand. Also, I have no idea how to turn it into an actual drive because—as I mentioned—if I try to open myself up to the target and follow through at all, my throw morphs into Style #1. In Style #2, I can't follow through. In Style #1, I can't not follow through!

Thanks in advance. Sorry for the essay.

 

[JR]

Swedes have different styles and neither seems proper to any Swede i've seen as such. I'd start the throw with style 2 finishing up with style 1 but getting the elbow straight. What you need to do that is the brace the plant step stopping it in it's place not pivoting on the heel during the pause to get the disc to the right pec position +- something depending on your body.

 

[Mr. Wessels]

Thanks JR, I will try that!

 

[black udder]

Happy to see you're still at it Blake! I'll be keeping an eye out for updates. Always great to see you trying to help others get the most of out their disc golf dreams.

 

[tampora]

Someone give Blake a shift key, please!

 

[tampora]

new/solidified terminologies/concepts

snap - the amount of velocity imparted on the disc relative to the thrower's arm-speed. (it is in fact possible to launch a disc faster than your arm was moving).

power pocket - this involves the area i used to refer to as the "power zone" and begins as the disc passes the right edge of your body. i think the term pocket is a better description since half of the throwing process is loading the pocket and the other half is unloading it.

point of impact - the fully loaded forward position in the power pocket. oddly enough... most throwers don't have a defined point of impact. all long throwers do have a defined point of impact.

active vs. passive unloading of the wrist. achieving a true point of impact is necessary to get the wrist to unload naturally. half-hitting is when there is a passive unload of the wrist (the motion is incidental). full-hitting requires an active unload of the wrist. active unloading is rather tricky since it involves applying force during the unload... yet the unload must begin as an incidental motion, forcing the unload to complete in a stronger/faster manner is necessary for full snap.

slip/micro-slip - once timing is "good," slips and micro-slips become the major concern regarding distance and accuracy. rim width and depth are major limiting factors in consistency. while the variability of slips/micro slips can be reduced as technique improves, the consistency factor is huge during the developing stages. e.g. i've found many players will half hit or better a roc ~80% of the time and half hit or better a nuke ~10% of the time.

dual stage shoulder rotation. there are definitely two distinct rotations... and not one continuous "spin." the first rotation generates momentum to reach the point of impact. the second rotation happens as you unload from the power pocket. if you can't separate these, it's next to impossible to snap a disc.

hyper spin. this technique gets really close to generating hyper spin on almost every throw if it is done correctly.

Unless you're referring to the hand/wrist as NOT being a part of the arm, how is it possible to propel a disc faster than the arm that accelerates it?

From what I've seen, snap has a generally accepted definition referring to 'some particular action' that results in the disc spinning as it leaves your hand. But, by your definition, if my disc leaves my arm at 3mph, but my arm was only moving at 1mph, then I would have a snap value of 3. This would be true even if the disc was not spinning in the least. That's a counter-intuitive definition of 'snap'.

I think the most critical definition that absent from your list is 'the hit'. I've seen you use this term many times, but never truly define it.

You have also defined hyper-spin as a technique that results in hyper-spin when done correctly. That explains nothing.

 

[Stringbean]

I think he is saying that the technique used to achieve a full hit will generate hyper-spin on almost every throw. I would consider hyperspin to be achieved at a point where the amount of spin causes the disc to fly more stable than it is rated.

 

[gretagun]

I don't think "snap" is defined by simply imparting spin on a disc. You can put a spin on a disc without snapping it at all. Discs can certainly launch at higher speeds than the arm, and this is the point of achieving snap. The force from snap comes from the loading and unloading of the tendons in your wrist. Think about throwing up shots with a putter or mid. Your arm doesn't have to move fast at all, but as long as there is a proper building of tension in the wrist, the disc "ejects" out of your hand at a higher speed than your arm is moving, resulting in a nice line drive shot.

 

[itlnstln]

I don't think "snap" is defined by simply imparting spin on a disc. You can put a spin on a disc without snapping it at all. Discs can certainly launch at higher speeds than the arm, and this is the point of achieving snap. The force from snap comes from the loading and unloading of the tendons in your wrist. Think about throwing up shots with a putter or mid. Your arm doesn't have to move fast at all, but as long as there is a proper building of tension in the wrist, the disc "ejects" out of your hand at a higher speed than your arm is moving, resulting in a nice line drive shot.

To rephrase this, hyper-spin is an indication of, but not necessarily all of, (good) snap.

When I'm hitting the disc hard, the disc "jumps" out of my hand and I can hear the air displacement as it leaves. This occurs only when my timing is on and keeping my arm somewhat loose providing the proper loading and unloading of the wrist tendons. Fortunately, these days my timing is more "on" than not. This sort of reminds me of the discussions about the popping sound of discs leaving the hand: it doesn't mean there was good snap, just that the acceleration occurred properly (more than likely, anyway, as well as finger orientation, etc.).

 

[tampora]

I can understand how a baseball leaving a bat can travel faster than the bat which accelerated it. The bat's momentum is imparted to the ball, and, since the ball has less mass to accelerate, it can go faster than the bat.

But in regards to disc golf...
Unless your hand is using the disc to push off against, I still don't see how it is possible that the disc can move faster than the fastest point of your body by using a pulling motion. If it really were possible, then you could hold your arm/hand/wrist/fingers completely motionless and STILL have the disc propel itself out of your hand. That would be quite a sight to see.

I suspect what really is happening is the arm moves at speed X, the wrist at speed Y, and the fingers at speed Z. So, the combined speed is X+Y+Z, but this only happens for the exact moment the arm, wrist, and fingers are all moving in tandem; as Blake might say: "at the hit". Since this moment is so brief, it only seems the disc moves faster than your body does because you really only see the arm movement as the wrist/finger movements have such a short duration.

 

[itlnstln]

At the very least, if you hit the disc properly, the disc should be travelling arm speed + wrist speed. If your arm is travelling, say, 50 mph and wrist opens at another 5 mph, then the disc should be travelling at least 55 mph. If the disc slips, then you just get arm speed.

Then there's acceleration and whole bunch of other physics stuff I'm not qualified to talk about.