Brychanus
* Ace Member *
*My use of "forward" might be ambiguous - "laterally" into the brace may be clearer per SW's vid.
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The SW22 Swim Move
- Thread starter HyzerUniBomber
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Brychanus
* Ace Member *
One more cool tidbit. The closer I look at this angle of Simon the more I notice. In this 4-frame montage of a max distance shot, you can visualize an imaginary connection from his left elbow driving linearly toward his torso and the planted food, contributing to his weight shift, hip transition, and the brace.
In addition, if you watch his "swim" hand closely, it never moves away from the target. It collects tight and the swim is still moving target-ward with his torso because it's just riding along into counterrotation from the initial linear motion. This explains why in me and others a bad swim move can result in the hand moving away from the target.
Critically, even if Simon didn't have a left arm, the motion of the shoulder & engagement of upper body musculature is very different from what I probably picked up from my misinterpretation of the well-intentioned "reach for the pocket" advice (or maybe that's just not great advice).
Like so many things, it seems so obvious once you're looking for it. I'll never not feel dumb learning this game.
In addition, if you watch his "swim" hand closely, it never moves away from the target. It collects tight and the swim is still moving target-ward with his torso because it's just riding along into counterrotation from the initial linear motion. This explains why in me and others a bad swim move can result in the hand moving away from the target.
Critically, even if Simon didn't have a left arm, the motion of the shoulder & engagement of upper body musculature is very different from what I probably picked up from my misinterpretation of the well-intentioned "reach for the pocket" advice (or maybe that's just not great advice).
Like so many things, it seems so obvious once you're looking for it. I'll never not feel dumb learning this game.
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hisdudeness47
Birdie Member
Last week I finally discovered that my trailing arm/side was the missing piece to my strong-arming puzzle. When I felt it, it was a exploding lightbulb. However, my muscle memory kept flailing my trailing arm when I wasn't focusing and I still didn't know what to do with it. I tried punching down, punching across, slapping myself in the abs and ass (these actually worked somewhat and have a nice audio cue. Going to explore further), but I couldn't keep anything consistent. Then I played today. After my round I was still a little frustrated with my rear arm so I went to 400ft hole 1 and tested out "The Jarvis"with every disc in my bag sans putters. You guys, the feeling was like a doctor telling you you're in remission. I can't even begin to explain the accuracy and consistent North Pole frozen icicle ropes that proceeded. So many park jobs they now call me The Valet. I'm thinking about painting this moment and hanging it above my fireplace.
Hyperbole aside, it was amazing. Easy 425+ when hitting the gas and dialed tf in. I threw my bag from that tee 5 times. It was the "less is more" sauce that I needed. Effortless power. I still am trying to understand why this works but it's here to stay. I eventually would like to get a big punch in when needed for extra gas but I'm gonna stick to The Jarvis until my muscle memory sticks a while.
Anyone struggling with consistency, give it a shot. The repeatability might be its best feature. It essentially eliminates a variable.
Hyperbole aside, it was amazing. Easy 425+ when hitting the gas and dialed tf in. I threw my bag from that tee 5 times. It was the "less is more" sauce that I needed. Effortless power. I still am trying to understand why this works but it's here to stay. I eventually would like to get a big punch in when needed for extra gas but I'm gonna stick to The Jarvis until my muscle memory sticks a while.
Anyone struggling with consistency, give it a shot. The repeatability might be its best feature. It essentially eliminates a variable.
Marc Jarvis actually swims/pushes forward his rear hand off his rear thigh, that's solid leverage from the largest bone in the body(femur), and not leveraging from a fluid like air or water! It really firms up/anchors your whole rear side to leverage the swing, and is much easier on your spine as it prevents it from separating or twisting too much from lag, so you really have to pivot/turn your pelvis/torso/shoulders much further back instead of twisting the spine. So everything pivots/turns back and further more together. You can actually push/turn your rear hip/shoulder away from the target in the backswing so they move targetward from behind you while turning away from it and clears the rear hip/shoulder back out of the way for the front shoulder/arm/disc to swing further back to the top of the backswing(should be same position as Door Frame Drill just before the heel plant/weightshift). And then you can push everything targetward ground up and from the rear hand/thigh with massive leverage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90&t=8m44s
Marc Jarvis is in perfect Dynamic Balance in One Leg Drill so he is braced dynamically upright like a skier through the front hip, knee, and ankle, but he is releasing the torso/arm/disc through the turn with a ton of G-force and his swing momentum pulls him into finish in perfect upright balance:
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Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Nice!
Wanted to echo the advice that it's good to try a few different off arm styles. You might switch them up as you keep developing.
The M. Jarvis style helped me develop more connection b/w my upper and lower body, find a little more leverage, and encouraged the rear leg extension & counterbalance to develop.
I think body type matters - as my swing developed more, I realized I was feeling a little cramped trying to get the rear hand/thigh contact in the swing. But I have pretty wide shoulders, short arms, and a long torso. People with other proportions might come to like the M. Jarvis as part of their "final" form.
I switched back to a compact "don't spill the beverage" position after lessons I learned from the M. Jarvis felt like they'd sunk in and found that I now naturally swim through (possibly from reps & trial & error with other techniques).
hisdudeness47
Birdie Member
I'm a 6'3 180 lanky wire.. Got that Calvin/Eagle/Will build. Jarvis looks pretty lanky too but he might be shorter (don't know him well enough). Curious what rear "move" suits the beanpoles best.
hisdudeness47
Birdie Member
Being tight is a good thing, I think. Faster rotation and less movement. Are you saying that your throwing arm and trailing arm are getting in the way of each other? Could be a rounding issue if so. Try keeping your upper throwing arm 90 degrees to your torso until the hit. Reach out, not back. More wide rail. May feel a little odd at first but once it clicks you're in for a treat.
Also, I switched from the pendulum to a stacked approach at the same time I started using The Jarvis as part of my "less is more" backhand rebuild. I've felt a lot more consistent and accurate with these two changes. I start my throw exactly this way now https://youtu.be/Lcqxt2NjSfA. Right before I reach full extension I start my forward motion with the plant and my rear hand to the thigh. This brings the loose, slightly flexed throwing arm to full extension and starts the slingshot. When I started bringing the disc to my left pec with my weight shift/rotation instead of an active arm pull, great things began to happen. The noodle arm is the way. Passive arm activity from setup until the hit. I like to pretend like my throwing arm is not a part of my body. All I'm doing is limply setting it on my desired plane. The body does the rest. Get loose, get floppy and only concentrate on an active wrist snap at the hit. Before that, your body does 99% of the work. I hope this rambling made at least a tiny bit of sense!
On another note, Overthrow just released a rear arm video about half an hour ago! Haven't watched it yet, but will right now! https://youtu.be/4tYqc1kp8sE
I've been switching back and forth between stacked approach and pendulum. What I find easier with the pendulum swing is keeping balanced and feeling the weight of the disc.
I do struggle more with rounding using the pendulum swing though. It's not causing me to grip lock or anything, but I find it harder to maintain a 90° frame while being loose. My shoulder collapses a bit during the pull through and I'm not getting my elbow out wide enough. Still haven't figured what "pulled taught" means/feels like. I only know limp and locked.
Main reason for sticking with pendulum for now is SW22 drills and his feedback on all the form threads on here. Everytime one thing clicks a lot of the other stuff on here makes more sense.
Much appreciated, it does makes sense and I'll be sure to take your tips to the field.
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Feels natural to me, but to the uninitiated, maybe not so much.
You should be able to push your rear shoulder further back out of the way to open up and unrestrict the backswing more.
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I teach more than one method of backswing. IMO the pendulum is easiest to learn and once you get that the others make sense and there's really not much difference between them.
This is pulled taut and free wheeling, no locking:
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Just wanted to encourage that the BH is a pretty complicated move, and since everything depends on other things in the form, hopefully those "clicks" accelerate.
From my experience here, posture, grip problems, and strong arming are most frequently what get in the way of a good pendulum arc (vertical or horizontal or in between).
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
I think I know what you mean. I think SW22 saying "taut" is the best way to say it.
I don't know your movement history, but the idea of being "taut" was totally foreign to me. You want to be kind of like a rope pulled taut when swinging a heavy weight at the end of it. You coil and uncoil within a sweet spot of tautness.
Links in Loading the Bow including the backswing drill I suggested might help and when I started to know the difference. Try not to overthink it/chase a particular feeling (of course, much easier said than done).
It's difficult to make words convey the feeling, but it's like beginning a motion, and then letting the momentum pull you taut/stretched a bit, just like heaving a weight without letting it go. It occurs fluidly across the whole form.
In my case I had to get a lot of movements in a decent position before tautness started to occur more naturally in the swing. Drills can get you there, and patience is hard!
Locked meaning the opposite of loose. I find it hard maintaining frame integrity when letting my arm go so I collapse.
Tried out the Jarvis yesterday. Didn't add to my max distance, but I was getting more of my throws close to max. Definetly simplified.
I'll reread loading the bow.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Right, I meant that "taut" is aspirational. Somewhere between too locked and too loose throughout the swing.
Two weeks in playing with the Jarvis. I'd recommend anyone not quite sure what they're doing with their off hand to try this. Definitely simplifies the throw.
The last two rounds I played I was totally confident of hyzer flipping my control drivers down the tunnels. I hit a few trees here and there of course, but confidently.
The last two rounds I played I was totally confident of hyzer flipping my control drivers down the tunnels. I hit a few trees here and there of course, but confidently.
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Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Non-random trivia question: who is the first known example of the Swedish move or overhead lever arm?
I'm also happy to be peppered with your favorite examples. Young Drew Gibson, GG, Salonen and some others are on this Thread. But I'm interested in how it interacts with other parts of backhand form and was hoping to learn a bit from form history too.
I'm also happy to be peppered with your favorite examples. Young Drew Gibson, GG, Salonen and some others are on this Thread. But I'm interested in how it interacts with other parts of backhand form and was hoping to learn a bit from form history too.
Here are some early examples I know:
Harold Duvall 1983: https://youtu.be/h_T2KwKfUOE
Thomas Ekström 1993 (at 31:00). Not a great view. Better view from 2010: https://youtu.be/7dz49D5-4tQ
Thomas' protege Jesper Lundmark, 2000 (at for example 1:03:45): https://youtu.be/VurxeSpvsBQ
RowingBoats
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That is the most 80's video I have seen in a while lol holy moly.
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