Tournament Play and Minor Infractions.

[JC17393]

I'll echo jimimc and others in the sentiment that there's no such thing as minor rules infractions. An infraction is an infraction, and they should be called when they occur. If the OP is stepping on his mini, even just barely, it should be called, no question. The OP should have no beef with the fact that he was committing a violation.

But from the description of the incidents, the guy calling the OP on his violations is, in a lot of ways, worse than the folks who say "who cares" regarding any and all rules stuff. He really deserves no credit for making the calls he did, not because he's a hypocrite who was stepping on his own mini, but because he couldn't make the calls correctly and in accordance to the rule book. It's guys like him doing things like this that make the people that truly know, follow, and call rules properly look bad. Guys like him that perpetuate the stereotype that people who call rules are jerks just trying to mess with other players. Guys like that guy piss me off like no one else in the game.

 

[wake911]

Did anyone else see it/ second it?

Not yet mentioned, good point.

This.
It may seem incidental / insignificant, but to the player who has to consciously think about making a legal throw, this matters. Its a lot easier to throw willy nilly instead of releasing from the confines of the area described in 893.04 A (1).

You have nearly a foot wiggle room, why crowd your marker?

and mashnut's post. Yup, it isn't the little fact of nudging your mini, but the not having to be as conscience of it. The fact you even stated you would look at different lines, and then maybe your foot moved proves you weren't thinking about it, which gives you an advantage.

The key takeaway here is, if you are called on a penalty, make sure the rules are enforced correctly. are rules instantly called and seconded? are correct rethrows taken? Are warnings marked on the scorecard?

 

[rickgz]

Not yet mentioned, good point.



and mashnut's post. Yup, it isn't the little fact of nudging your mini, but the not having to be as conscience of it. The fact you even stated you would look at different lines, and then maybe your foot moved proves you weren't thinking about it, which gives you an advantage.

The key takeaway here is, if you are called on a penalty, make sure the rules are enforced correctly. are rules instantly called and seconded? are correct rethrows taken? Are warnings marked on the scorecard?

OP here....

I did mention in my original post, that another person confirmed though he did tell me privately that he thought it was Petty.

However no notations of warning were made on the card. I was not told to rethrow even on the hole where the penalty was assessed and was allowed to hole out with the penalty noted when we were writing down the score.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I now have a much clearer understanding of the rules. I will always carry the rule book with me during Tournament rounds. I will not allow myself to be bullied again!

Side note#1 The previous weekend I participated in the PDGA National Seniors Championship held in conjunction with the National Seniors Games in which Disc Golf was a demonstration sport. I competed against the same fellow there (and beat him though I came in 4th). During those rounds, there was never a mention of any faults from anyone about my stance or anyone elses for that matter. As it was a local event here in Cleveland, I was proud to help the out of towners with the course, giving advice on lines ad other local kowledge. The person in question was thrilled to get this knowledge and thanked me for it. It was a fun filled event with no stress just the way it is suppose to be.

Side note #2 As this individual was an out of towner, I could not help but hope that as he drove home to NC that he just might get pulled over for going only 1 or 2 MPH over the limit and get a ticket. It is the law you know!

Thanks again for all of the honest advice. I think it is time to go throw a round with some of the new discs I won in the tourny. :clap:

Rick G

 

[tbird888]

You say you were conciously making an effort to not bump your mini, but you still chose to repeatedly line up an inch behind it where you were consistently bumping it?

You violated a rule. There's nothing petty about enforcing the rules of play in a sanctioned event. No amount of "well, it's a C-Tier, lighten up" will fly. Realize that you bump your mini when you line up an inch behind, start lining up a little further back, and beat people with your game. Quit trying to justify why it's OK for you to cheat. If you want to play a casual game, don't sign up to play a sanctioned tournament.

 

[rickgz]

You say you were conciously making an effort to not bump your mini, but you still chose to repeatedly line up an inch behind it where you were consistently bumping it?

You violated a rule. There's nothing petty about enforcing the rules of play in a sanctioned event. No amount of "well, it's a C-Tier, lighten up" will fly. Realize that you bump your mini when you line up an inch behind, start lining up a little further back, and beat people with your game. Quit trying to justify why it's OK for you to cheat. If you want to play a casual game, don't sign up to play a sanctioned tournament.

Cheat? That is a little harsh my friend as I am about as honest as they come.

Perhaps you need to be pulled over for 1-2 MPH over the limit and ticketed as well. It is the LAW! But since you are so conscience about all the rules, you never do that do you?

If you have been reading the entire thread and read all my posts, you would have realized that your negative post was not neccessary.

Have a good day.

Rick G

 

[bnbanbury]

You say you were conciously making an effort to not bump your mini, but you still chose to repeatedly line up an inch behind it where you were consistently bumping it?

You violated a rule. There's nothing petty about enforcing the rules of play in a sanctioned event. No amount of "well, it's a C-Tier, lighten up" will fly. Realize that you bump your mini when you line up an inch behind, start lining up a little further back, and beat people with your game. Quit trying to justify why it's OK for you to cheat. If you want to play a casual game, don't sign up to play a sanctioned tournament.

I see this a lot, the sentiment that a foot fault is cheating, and it's rarely the case that this is true. Committing an unintentional stance violation is simply a mistake, akin to a foul in basketball or an offsides penalty in football. These are things that are against the rules and people are penalized for them but they aren't cheating. If someone commits a stance violation in which they are knowingly taking an illegal stance to give themselves an easier throw, then i would say that they are attempting to cheat.

 

[The Hammer]

Rules is rules, no matter how small you perceive them to be. If you don't want to get called for them either clean up your play, or don't play in tournaments.

 

[bluTDI09]

You say you were conciously making an effort to not bump your mini, but you still chose to repeatedly line up an inch behind it where you were consistently bumping it?

You violated a rule. There's nothing petty about enforcing the rules of play in a sanctioned event. No amount of "well, it's a C-Tier, lighten up" will fly. Realize that you bump your mini when you line up an inch behind, start lining up a little further back, and beat people with your game. Quit trying to justify why it's OK for you to cheat. If you want to play a casual game, don't sign up to play a sanctioned tournament.

I have played with Rick many times and I assure you he was not trying to cheat, but I agree with the substance of this post. It is not a question of the tier of tournament or the division played. The rules are there to make competition fair. Everyone should know and accept them. It is sad that some players use the rules to play mind games with other people, but you have to know how to deal with people like that. People who want to make the effort to scrutinize your play should be subject to the same scrutiny. There are more sportsmanlike ways to ensure that everyone is playing fairly though. For example, there were several instances on my card in open where people were reminded before the throw to check their stance rather than calling a warning or penalty after the throw.

IMO, there are two lessons to learn from an experience like this. One is to realize that there are ways to reduce your risk of accidentally breaking rules like this: line up farther behind your mini and always be very aware of your feet. The second is to make sure you know the rules and can defend your standpoint (no pun intended) if you have to.

 

[JC17393]

I see this a lot, the sentiment that a foot fault is cheating, and it's rarely the case that this is true. Committing an unintentional stance violation is simply a mistake, akin to a foul in basketball or an offsides penalty in football. These are things that are against the rules and people are penalized for them but they aren't cheating. If someone commits a stance violation in which they are knowingly taking an illegal stance to give themselves an easier throw, then i would say that they are attempting to cheat.

I think tbird is more calling it cheating in the sense that if you are trying to justify or rationalize the "mistake" rather than just owning it and making attempts to correct the mistake in the future, you're going a step beyond having made a simple, unintentional goof.

It might still be a completely unintentional violation, but arguing why you should be allowed to get away with it can skew the perception of it being an innocent mistake. Following it up by not attempting to remedy the mistake by taking extra precautions going forward, and continuing to try to rationalize it away as "unimportant" or "petty", really gives off the vibe of, at the very least, not having respect for the rules. Cheating might be a strong term, but I think we've moved away from a situation of "oops, my mistake, won't happen again" in this discussion.

 

[tbird888]

Cheat? That is a little harsh my friend as I am about as honest as they come.

Perhaps you need to be pulled over for 1-2 MPH over the limit and ticketed as well. It is the LAW! But since you are so conscience about all the rules, you never do that do you?

If you have been reading the entire thread and read all my posts, you would have realized that your negative post was not neccessary.

Have a good day.

Rick G

One hand does not wash the other. The last time I was pulled over for speeding I accepted the ticket because, get this, I was in the wrong. The other end of that is that my speeding on a road is casual, not in a race. It doesn't possibly make me win more while someone who followed the rules perfectly gets less. If I were coming down pit lane and sped, I would expect a drive through penalty because, get this again, I violated a rule of competition.

My post was harsh, but it wasn't negative.

The facts:

• You stepped on your mini while throwing, which is a rules violation
• You are trying to justify that you stepped on your mini accidentally and not to gain an advantage

You stepped on your mini, were stroked for it, and it cost you at the end of the round. Learn from it, line up with a little more room, and don't get penalized anymore. Do not come in here looking for sympathy.

 

[tbird888]

I think tbird is more calling it cheating in the sense that if you are trying to justify or rationalize the "mistake" rather than just owning it and making attempts to correct the mistake in the future, you're going a step beyond having made a simple, unintentional goof.

Bingo

If he had mentioned that he started lining up further behind his mini to correct it, it would be different. Instead, he obstinately kept putting himself in a position to violate the rule, did violate it, and is now complaining about being called for it.

OP, I may sound mean/harsh, but you have no one to blame for your penalties but yourself.

 

[tbird888]

I have played with Rick many times and I assure you he was not trying to cheat, but I agree with the substance of this post.

I'm not trying to call Rick's character into question. I'm sure he's an easy going, fair person. I'm treating this as an isolated incident, and only using the information he himself has provided. I've had similar things happen (not foot faults but something I considered equally minor), and I've learned from them. I screwed up, figured out a way to correct it so it wouldn't happen in the future, and it hasn't since. It stinks, but you don't learn if you're allowed a pass.

 

[bluTDI09]

Not to completely thread jack, but I had a similar experience that involved minor rules infractions in tournament play.

I played in a sanctioned winter charity event this past year. It was a small event on a windy, snowy day and everyone was there to have fun and see who could brave the elements the best. Someone on my card early in the round decided to start marking his lie with a mitten. After the first time he did it, I casually told him you can't mark your lie with a mitten and offered to lend him a mini. He got all pissy, saying it was just a charity event, no one cares, it doesn't make any difference whether it is marked with a mini or a mitten or whatever. I agreed, except that in all likelihood the wind would blow the mitten away and then we would have to figure out where his lie was, etc... He then proceeded to act like a baby and played really terrible the rest of the round and then quit at lunch time.

The moral of the story is, it is better to be a rules nazi on yourself so that other people don't feel the need to, and if you get called for something, it doesn't get into your head and ruin your round.

 

[bluTDI09]

I'm not trying to call Rick's character into question. I'm sure he's an easy going, fair person. I'm treating this as an isolated incident, and only using the information he himself has provided. I've had similar things happen (not foot faults but something I considered equally minor), and I've learned from them. I screwed up, figured out a way to correct it so it wouldn't happen in the future, and it hasn't since. It stinks, but you don't learn if you're allowed a pass.

Agreed. Maybe I should have quoted someone else's post. I just wanted to offer personal experience that the OP is not a cheater.

 

[barneco]

...you gain an advantage when you don't have to put in the effort and attention to make sure you don't make that kind of little mistake...

I'm gonna throw out another THIS for this post.

Obviously some do not agree, which illustrates another reason that everything should be called:

Every player has the responsibility to defend the field. If we don't call violations on ourselves, then no one will.

Another way to look at this is that you're not just calling infractions for yourself, you're calling them for everyone else in your division. This is the problem with each individual deciding what to call and what's minor enough to not call. YOU might think it's minor, but there's a good chance that there's someone else in the field that doesn't, and not making the call is doing them(and the rest of the field) a disservice. Some things may still seem so minor as to be obvious, but it's apparent from this thread(and the countless others that have preceded it) that everyone has a different line, which is exactly why there is a written standard that everyone should follow. There's no judgement, just enforcement of fact.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'll echo jimimc and others in the sentiment that there's no such thing as minor rules infractions. An infraction is an infraction, and they should be called when they occur. If the OP is stepping on his mini, even just barely, it should be called, no question. The OP should have no beef with the fact that he was committing a violation.

Yeah, but almost never is called. So that, in that one-in-a-thousand case where someone calls it---legitimately, justifiably, no argument there---it's bound to seem a minor rules infraction.

There are plenty of examples, in other sports and outside of sports, where an impartial official makes calls based on the degree of the rules infraction. When he calls it real tight, people take umbrage because it's not usually called that way.

Which isn't to say it's wrong to call it. We would be better off if more people called rules more tightly, and everyone would get used to it.

 

[tbird888]

I'm gonna throw out another THIS for this post.

Obviously some do not agree, which illustrates another reason that everything should be called:

Every player has the responsibility to defend the field. If we don't call violations on ourselves, then no one will.

Another way to look at this is that you're not just calling infractions for yourself, you're calling them for everyone else in your division. This is the problem with each individual deciding what to call and what's minor enough to not call. YOU might think it's minor, but there's a good chance that there's someone else in the field that doesn't, and not making the call is doing them(and the rest of the field) a disservice. Some things may still seem so minor as to be obvious, but it's apparent from this thread(and the countless others that have preceded it) that everyone has a different line, which is exactly why there is a written standard that everyone should follow. There's no judgement, just enforcement of fact.

Very well said.

 

[Steve West]

Side note #2 As this individual was an out of towner, I could not help but hope that as he drove home to NC that he just might get pulled over for going only 1 or 2 MPH over the limit and get a ticket. It is the law you know!

He won't. Grandmasters have learned that if they set the cruise control for one mile an hour under the speed limit, they get there almost as fast, have no worries about tickets, and can basically ignore all the cars on the road (because they never have to pass anyone).

Kind of like moving back from your mini an inch or two.

To be on-topic:

Any rule that can affect the score is just as important as making or missing a putt.

 

[ohtobediscing]

If you're lining up behind your marker, and you're not taking a step, yet you're touching your marker as you throw, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

When I need a single easy step on 100'-150' approaches, I plan on landing the center of the ball of my foot on the "disc-width" line, with the intention that at least part of my foot will be well within that line, yet at least several cms from my marker. And I look at the basket, then where my foot will land, basket/foot/basket, and throw. With rare exceptions[usually due to vegetation in the rough], I don't footfault.
The same for putts--almost everyone rocks forward on a putt, so leave yourself a few cms to prevent inadvertent faults. I LOOK at my foot as I place it for a putt, specifically to prevent this.

Give yourself a few cms off the marker---if that relief seems to make much difference to you on a 100'+ shot [sans obstacle], you might consider a different sport for the sake of everyone's sanity.

 

[rickgz]

Bingo

If he had mentioned that he started lining up further behind his mini to correct it, it would be different. Instead, he obstinately kept putting himself in a position to violate the rule, did violate it, and is now complaining about being called for it.

OP, I may sound mean/harsh, but you have no one to blame for your penalties but yourself.

Actually I did start lining up a it further back, but apparently not enough, or I fell back into my habit of lining up just behind my mini. Habits are hard to break and I promise you I will break that habit!

Part of my issue which has been addressed by others is the way it was done, and my inexperience and not knowing the rules fully and allowing my strokes to be administered incorrectly. I do think he was playing some head games, as we were very friendly before this happened, and he only started calling things after I had a several stroke lead over him and we were battling for 1st Place. I wanted to leave that part out as I have no proof only my impression.

Again LESSON LEARNED! I will be better perepared at my next tourney.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Rick G