Tournament Play and Minor Infractions.

[Rondpitt]

This.
It may seem incidental / insignificant, but to the player who has to consciously think about making a legal throw, this matters. Its a lot easier to throw willy nilly instead of releasing from the confines of the area described in 893.04 A (1).

You have nearly a foot wiggle room, why crowd your marker?

Yep, sorry for the petty calls, but it sounds like a good time to start practicing a foot plant that takes a call like this off the boards.

Ron

 

[Rondpitt]

This.
It may seem incidental / insignificant, but to the player who has to consciously think about making a legal throw, this matters. Its a lot easier to throw willy nilly instead of releasing from the confines of the area described in 893.04 A (1).

You have nearly a foot wiggle room, why crowd your marker?

Yep, sorry for the petty calls, but it sounds like a good time to start practicing a foot plant that takes a call like this off the boards.

Ron

 

[agibson]

Someone on my card early in the round decided to start marking his lie with a mitten. After the first time he did it, I casually told him you can't mark your lie with a mitten and offered to lend him a mini.

I thought there used to be a better definition of a mini somewhere. In the current rules, is it really just "A small disc, not used in play"? Maybe there's a better definition in the tech standards or something?

By this definition I could just use some non-max radius disc, not use it in play, and call it my mini?

 

[ru4por]

He won't. Grandmasters have learned that if they set the cruise control for one mile an hour under the speed limit, they get there almost as fast, have no worries about tickets, and can basically ignore all the cars on the road (because they never have to pass anyone).
QUOTE]

I hope that was not sarcastic, I resemble this remark...oh wait...I am almost 50. And to think I was not learning all along.

 

[krupicka]

It used to be defined in the rules. Looks like when they moved the technical standards out this was accidentally removed.

 

[bluTDI09]

I thought there used to be a better definition of a mini somewhere. In the current rules, is it really just "A small disc, not used in play"? Maybe there's a better definition in the tech standards or something?

By this definition I could just use some non-max radius disc, not use it in play, and call it my mini?

A definition used to be in the rules but was removed for some reason. A mini was defined as a disc between 7 and 15 cm in diameter and not more than 3 cm tall. It was probably an oversight that it was left out. I honestly am not sure whether that opens the issue up for interpretation or not.

 

[scarpfish]

If more of us were "rules nazis" regarding this issue, the stigma of being one would go away, and in the process, so would the term. We would accept the enforcement of the foot fault rule as standard practice. We would then all benefit and be more aware of where we put our feet down. People who say that would suck the fun out of tourneys, well, they should stick to casual play.

Nonetheless, I don't see that utopia happening any time soon.

 

[jimimc]

I'm not going to call you a cheat. I don't believe you or the person who called you, then did the same thing thought you or he cheated. What I am going to say is, you don't understand golf. Disc Golf like Ball Golf expects players to police themselves. If you knew you were touching your mini, you should have brought it to the groups attention, not someone else.

I had a player in a tournament get called for a foot fault by an official at a local C tier. The player later foot faulted and was called by his group. They were all going to let it go as a warning. The player later found out the rule was a penalty that the group did not stroke him for. He came and pointed it out and took second instead of a tie for first. The respect that he gained from the other players will out last any win he could ever have.

 

[wake911]

I thought there used to be a better definition of a mini somewhere. In the current rules, is it really just "A small disc, not used in play"? Maybe there's a better definition in the tech standards or something?

By this definition I could just use some non-max radius disc, not use it in play, and call it my mini?

Interesting that isn't in there anymore. So basically you can use any disc like object to mark your position. No matter the size. So basically you could use another disc to mark your main disc, since there isn't a size limit to your mini. i.e. my gators are smaller than all my other discs, so technically i could use my gator as a mini marker disc. No disc is in play unless it is the current lie, all others aren't in play, so i could use any other disc from my bag.

(i agree this is silly, and will continue to use my regular mini or my hockey puck for marking duties. Just interesting that you can basically use anything disc-like.)

 

[dscmn]

How do you know if you even foot-faulted? Just because you moved your mini with your foot doesn't mean it was a foot fault. The rule is difficult to enforce and certainly difficult for the thrower to argue, as he obviously doesn't see his foot while throwing and can't automatically feel a mini through a shoe. Heel spinners touch their minis a lot. Sometimes legally, sometimes not. It's a tough call especially gauging the exact moment of release simultaneously with the exact moment the shoe touches the mini.

How do we know that the person making the call fully understands the rules correctly?

 

[ScottyLove]

How do you know if you even foot-faulted? Just because you moved your mini with your foot doesn't mean it was a foot fault. The rule is difficult to enforce and certainly difficult for the thrower to argue, as he obviously doesn't see his foot while throwing and can't automatically feel a mini through a shoe. Heel spinners touch their minis a lot. Sometimes legally, sometimes not.

When is touching your mini in the act of throw ever NOT a foot fault? This is news to me...

 

[1978]

Hello All,

I hope I am askeing this in the right section, if not perhaps the Mods can move it.

I had an unpleasent situation happen to me at a 2 day tournament this weekend concerning being called on a very minor infraction (twice) that cost me a couple of strokes. I am asking for your collective wisdom as to your take on the situation.

First off, I have read the rule book and do try hard to play within the rules whether it be solo play by myself or with friends, scrambles or sanctioned tournaments.

What I was called on, was for touching my marker disc when making upshots 100 feet or more from the basket, in other words not Putts. The touching was very incidental which probably happened as I looked at different angles before throwing and not looking down and double checking my foot before throwing. My foot was maybe touching the outer rim of the marker, and possibly on it by maybe an 1/4 " or causing the marker to move by the same amount after throwing. Like I said, very incidental with no intent for a tactical advantage, nor would there be a tactitcal advantage. It is not as if I kicked the marker away or completey stepped on it.

The person who called me on it did give me a warning yesterday which kind of stunned everyone else in the group, and then called me on it twice today without warning, even after I was obviously trying to comply with his warning. The other person on the card who confirmed it for the penalty, took me aside and told me it was BS but it is the rule, and he saw me touch the mini so he confirmed and I was stroked. The 2nd time I believe I did not touch, but that a twig underneath my marker and foot had caused the motion.

Now I have been stroked before, for OB's, throwing from the wrong tee, and for miss counting my card before turning it in, and have no issues with that as they are major infractions, but I thought what happened to me at this tourny was very petty and everyone I discussed it with including the TD whom I know fairly well agreed.

At the end of the round after calming down, I told the person that I felt he was being petty as it was incidental, no intent, and that this was not a pro tourny or even a B event but a local C event that is put on for fun.

I will mention that the fellow who called me, I was leading by one stroke going into todays final round and we were #1 & #2. Fortunately, even with the strokes I led him by 3 more strokes at the tournament's end, but it did allow #3 to catch up and tie me. I did prevail in the throw off and he too thought it was quite petty and that he would never have done so.

So my question is, in tournament play (amature not Pro) do you call other players out on very minor incidental infractions that would have no bearing on the play?

FWIW, this was Advanced Grandmasters, so I wasn't dealing with some young hotshot.

Thanks for your insight.

Rick G

I dont call these, but I quietly tell the person between holes what they did. Bottom line. Don't touch your mini. Look down, make sure you aren't OR just mark 6" behind it. It isn't going to help you any to be 6" one way or the other. ONce getting a warning, making sure you have no chance of touching it is so easy. You played too close to your mini, can't control your feet and got faulted... If you touch your mini, your foot was hovering above it, usually on standstill throws... That is a stance violation. Just don't get so close to your mini and follow the rules.

 

[dscmn]

After the release, as the rule states.

 

[ScottyLove]

After the release, as the rule states.

I bolded that for you... that's not in the act of throwing... You can do cartwheels if you want afterwards for all I care. Just don't step on your mini or disc before you let go. Pretty simple.

 

[DiscChainBasket18]

Back up!

1) Dont stand so close to your mini! Then you wont have to worry about your foot moving it when you throw. End of problem! You said you were "not trying to gain an advantage" & yet your standing so close to your mini that it got moved when you threw (more than once)! Figure it out for how you throw. If you have a tendency to move the mini when your throwing then place your foot a few inches farther back from where you normally stand.
2) Move all sticks, rocks, brush, leaves, etc that could affect your footing/marker before you throw. This would minimize the chance your marker could move as your throwing. Having the area (where your foot is at) clear of all obstacles will give you better plant foot anyway (& it will feel better under foot). Who likes standing on a branch or rock when they are throwing? Not me! This is all up to you. Nobody else cares about your footing unless it is illegal!
3) Calling an infraction seems petty & I dont like to do it personally because it can cause tension & wars within the group but rules are rules. Follow them yourself as best as you can. If nobody in the group has the stones to call the foul it may get worse! Jus sayin'
4) A rule is a rule! I hate when players in the group want to be treated differently because it's 'petty' or they are old, young, female (this happens a LOT!), "it's not really that big of a deal", etc. If everybody follows the same rules there should not be any issues. If everybody is left free to do whatever the hell they want, how messed up is that scorecard going to look?
5) Stand up & say OK I made a mistake but I am going to learn something from it. Instead of trying to push it off on somebody else. Own it! A lot of times in a close tourney or if somebody is just a douche-bag they will watch everything you do looking for an advantage. Dont give them one!

 

[dscmn]

I bolded that for you... that's not in the act of throwing... You can do cartwheels if you want afterwards for all I care. Just don't step on your mini or disc before you let go. Pretty simple.

So you don't consider the follow through after the release part of the throw? I think many touches occur during this part of the throw, or whatever you would prefer to call the follow through portion of the throw. All legal of course. My point was that it's sometimes difficult to tell if the touching of the mini by the foot happens before or after the release. Thanks for the bolding though, very helpful.

 

[rickgz]

I'm not going to call you a cheat. I don't believe you or the person who called you, then did the same thing thought you or he cheated. What I am going to say is, you don't understand golf. Disc Golf like Ball Golf expects players to police themselves. If you knew you were touching your mini, you should have brought it to the groups attention, not someone else.

I had a player in a tournament get called for a foot fault by an official at a local C tier. The player later foot faulted and was called by his group. They were all going to let it go as a warning. The player later found out the rule was a penalty that the group did not stroke him for. He came and pointed it out and took second instead of a tie for first. The respect that he gained from the other players will out last any win he could ever have.

I understand what you are saying here and pretty much agree. However, I was totally unaware that I had touched my mini when it happened, just as he was the one time I saw him do it. That is how incidental the contact was. I would start out correct, but when I pivoted my foot while throwing that minimal contact occured.

Once again I will state. LESSON LEARNED!

Rick G

 

[smyith]

a simple lesson.

first, if you question anything called whatsoever, mark it on the score card and talk to the TD right after the round is over. never assume the person calling you on the rule knows what they are talking about. the TD is the ultimate authority at a tournament.

second, the rules are there for a reason. you should never feel bad about calling someone on the rule. the rules are designed for fair play, someone who gets upset at being called on a rule shouldn't be competing period. its one thing to disagree another thing to have a hissy-fit about it.

third, make sure you understand the rules and put yourself in a position to not break them. if you have a habit of touching your mini while throwing, move your foot back an inch or two. problem solved. it is not the responsibility of your opponents to make sure you understand the rule, it is their responsibilty to make sure you abide by them.

No I don't call other people out for minor things like that but I do also understand the rules and realize it's illegal.

this is cheating by the way. rules are not there for you to decide which ones you should and should not follow. it does not make for a fair comeptetion amongst all the competitors, essentially your card is playing a different set of rules from the others...cheating.

 

[rickgz]

How do you know if you even foot-faulted? Just because you moved your mini with your foot doesn't mean it was a foot fault. The rule is difficult to enforce and certainly difficult for the thrower to argue, as he obviously doesn't see his foot while throwing and can't automatically feel a mini through a shoe. Heel spinners touch their minis a lot. Sometimes legally, sometimes not. It's a tough call especially gauging the exact moment of release simultaneously with the exact moment the shoe touches the mini.

How do we know that the person making the call fully understands the rules correctly?

Very interesting! I do know from this discussion, that my faults were not applied correctly so perhaps I did not fault at all? But, I will now be making sure my foot is about 6 inches from my mini when I throw now to take it out of the equation all together.

You did notice I said 6"s and not the allowed 10"s so I won't get accused of being too far from my mini and open up another can of worms.

Perhaps the rules need to be changed to clarify this infraction?

Rick G

 

[JC17393]

Perhaps the rules need to be changed to clarify this infraction?

Clarified how? What part of the rule isn't clear?

802.04 Throwing from a Stance

B. When the disc is released, a player must:

1. Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the lie; and,

2. Have no supporting point in contact with the marker disc or any object (including the playing surface) closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,

3. Have all supporting points in-bounds.

800.02 Definitions
Lie
The spot on the playing surface behind the marker, upon which the player takes a stance in accordance with the rules. It is a line 30 centimeters in length extending back along the line of play from the rear edge of the marker disc.