Tourney Profit from Am Registrations

[ntguthrie]

Wanted to get some input from TDs/clubs regarding tourney profit. Just ran a B-tier and was curious how you guys typically handle Am payouts. Here are some stats:

- We were able to raise $750 in sponsorships, $500 which went to Open payout and the other $250 for Ams. So no Am registration needed to be used to cover Open payout.
- The value of the player packs + 1st place trophies was roughly equal to the Am registration fees (-$3 PDGA fee). So we already met the 100% Am payout through player packs.
- After factoring in cost of player packs, 1st place trophies and all PDGA fees, the club was profiting about $15 per Am.

Understanding that technically we already met the 100% payout requirement, we still wanted to provide additional prizes (in the form of merch vouchers) since we had a near-capacity Am field and some additional sponsor money. So ultimately, my question is...is there a rule-of-thumb for how much a club should profit per Am player? $0? $10? As much as the PDGA allows? Just wanted to get some input & try to find that balance for future tourneys.

 

[ToddL]

Our typical C-Tier tournaments:
$40 registration fee
-$2 PDGA fee
-$1 PDGA sanctioning + insurance
-$15 players' pack (merchandise voucher)
-$a couple trophies
= $20 from each player to payout.

Payout is merchandise vouchers. We buy wholesale and sell retail for appx 50% profit. That gives us about $10 per player profit from payout. We also get 50% profit from our players' pack vouchers, so that's another $7. Any added cash to the Ams goes to payout, so half of that gets turned back around into profit. So, $15 profit per player for a C-Tier with a $40 entry fee isn't unreasonable at all. Bump it to a B-tier with some added cash and you can easily clear $20+ per player.

 

[DavidSauls]

The profit is on the wholesale/retail differential. The players, as a group, are getting 100% back, plus the value of playing in a tournament. I've no problem with the TD, club, or whoever is running the tournament, ending up with whatever profit results. It's earned in handling all the merchandise, and the effort of getting it at wholesale cost. I don't see the players being entitled to the fruits of that effort, in addition to everything else they're getting.

I say that as a lifelong Am, paying Am entry fees for 20 years and as far into the future as my health permits.

Keep it, put it into the course, fixed tournament expenses, club support, or your pockets. Doesn't matter to me.

 

[bnbanbury]

I think as long as you meet the PDGA requirements the rest of the money should go back to the club to be used as they see fit.

*side rant*
This is why i never understood why ams so often get a bad rap and that there is some perceived nobility in playing open even if you don't belong there. Ams are the ones giving back to their clubs while the pros take the added cash and call 940 rated players baggers to try and get them to move up and donate.
*end*

 

[ToddL]

*side rant*
This is why i never understood why ams so often get a bad rap and that there is some perceived nobility in playing open even if you don't belong there. Ams are the ones giving back to their clubs while the pros take the added cash and call 940 rated players baggers to try and get them to move up and donate.
*end*

I only semi-jokingly say that I don't care if any pros show up to my tournaments. All they do is show up late, ask for special provisions, complain about the course, take their money, and leave. Ams might do a lot of the same things, but at least the club makes a profit from them.

 

[DavidSauls]

Yeah, Pros may not have the love for Ams that they should, but TDs do.

The fact is, most tournament players, Pro or Am, are relatively clueless about tournament finances.

Or, if not most, then 98% of the ones I hear from.

 

[bradharris]

The fact is, most tournament players, Pro or Am, are relatively clueless about tournament finances.

Being clueless about tournament finances is not a bad thing. But complaining about something you're clueless about is.

 

[Pbmercil]

Wanted to get some input from TDs/clubs regarding tourney profit. Just ran a B-tier and was curious how you guys typically handle Am payouts. Here are some stats:

- We were able to raise $750 in sponsorships, $500 which went to Open payout and the other $250 for Ams. So no Am registration needed to be used to cover Open payout.
- The value of the player packs + 1st place trophies was roughly equal to the Am registration fees (-$3 PDGA fee). So we already met the 100% Am payout through player packs.
- After factoring in cost of player packs, 1st place trophies and all PDGA fees, the club was profiting about $15 per Am.

Understanding that technically we already met the 100% payout requirement, we still wanted to provide additional prizes (in the form of merch vouchers) since we had a near-capacity Am field and some additional sponsor money. So ultimately, my question is...is there a rule-of-thumb for how much a club should profit per Am player? $0? $10? As much as the PDGA allows? Just wanted to get some input & try to find that balance for future tourneys.

As long as you hit your 100% of net entry fees do whatever you want with the leftover. But be quite about it. The legions of butt hurt come out in force if people find out that someone earned a "profit" on a tournement

 

[TimSyl]

As long as you hit your 100% of net entry fees do whatever you want with the leftover. But be quite about it. The legions of butt hurt come out in force if people find out that someone earned a "profit" on a tournement

True. I say if people are satisfied with the tournament, make as much $ as you can. Most people don't comprehend all the work that goes into hosting a tournament.

 

[DavidSauls]

Being clueless about tournament finances is not a bad thing. But complaining about something you're clueless about is.

Yes, but when they're clueless they're operating on false assumptions that, were they true, might be grounds for complaint.

It would be better if the complaints started with a question about the facts, though.

But I'll admit to making the same complaints, long ago. 15-20 years ago, at one course I often played, Ams were trophy-only with no players pack. Having received stacks of plastic elsewhere, this always struck me as being rather thin. I later learned that the baskets and course installation were being paid for,year-by-year, out of the tournament proceeds. Once they were paid off, payouts went up to normal. Apparently that was the deal that made the course available, at all.

 

[JC17393]

So ultimately, my question is...is there a rule-of-thumb for how much a club should profit per Am player? $0? $10? As much as the PDGA allows? Just wanted to get some input & try to find that balance for future tourneys.

First off, congrats on getting enough sponsorship to where this is even a question.

Second, as others have said, there is no rule of thumb or rule at all about what kind of profit a TD/club can make off of their retail margins. As long as it's within reason (as in you're not valuing stock DX disc at $30 or something), the TD or club pocketing the profits made from retail margins is perfectly acceptable. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about or has an agenda. As long as all the minimum requirements are met, you're good to go.

A lot of TDs/clubs are in the habit of rolling some/most/all of their retail profit back into the tournament (cash in the pro purse, more prizes in the am purse, etc), and there's nothing wrong with it, but some people seem to mistake that generosity as something that is required. It is not.

 

[DavidSauls]

It should also be kept in mind that sometimes that "profit" isn't really profit to the TD, club, etc., at all. Sometimes it covers the fixed costs---course rental, porta-johns, signs, whatever.

 

[reposado]

It should also be kept in mind that sometimes that "profit" isn't really profit to the TD, club, etc., at all. Sometimes it covers the fixed costs---course rental, porta-johns, signs, whatever.

even volunteer labor. if the club is fortunate enough to have volunteers willing to do all the things that a tournament needs to do for free, that doesn't mean that that savings is profit. extra revenue that is attributed to the club using volunteers instead of paid labor for tasks that are needed for the tournament should go to the club without anyone even considering it profit.

 

[JohtoVillage]

One thing I keep seeing at tournaments that should not happen is a local club doing the payout themselves. This should not be happening at tournaments. Hire an actual disc golf vendor to do the payout, unless your club has a lot of discs to offer to people (more than 500). Buying 150 discs and using that for the AM payout is just not a good idea. It makes AMS more mad - just take a cut from the vendor you hire from the event and let them sell the discs.

 

[scarpfish]

One thing I keep seeing at tournaments that should not happen is a local club doing the payout themselves. This should not be happening at tournaments. Hire an actual disc golf vendor to do the payout, unless your club has a lot of discs to offer to people (more than 500). Buying 150 discs and using that for the AM payout is just not a good idea. It makes AMS more mad - just take a cut from the vendor you hire from the event and let them sell the discs.

The counterpoint is that in some locales is that there may be no such vendor available (at least on the day of the event), or the only vendor available may not have all that impressive of a stock on hand either.

 

[DavidSauls]

Around here, local clubs run tournaments and always have plenty of discs to choose from. The issue isn't whether a local club handles payout; it's how many discs are available, regardless of who does it.

Even so, I find it weak grounds for Ams to complain, and kind of shows how far off track we've gotten on Am payouts. Ams will complain because they pay $40 and get $40 worth of merchandise and get to play in an organized tournament---but they don't get the exact merchandise they want. Sad. We're spoiled, and it's sad. It's like children complaining about their Christmas presents.

A great selection is a perk, but should hardly be a requirement.

 

[DavidSauls]

Or, to put it gentler, a great selection and vouchers is a kind of "best practices" for tournaments. Something TDs or clubs should do if they can.

Scarpfish is right, though, that it varies by region. I'm in South Carolina. 5 or 10 years ago there were a couple of vendors who would come to tournaments, and offer a cut of the proceeds, some of which didn't have huge selections either. I don't know of any now. On the other hand, we're near enough to Innova that we have the option of driving and hour or two, picking up discs on consignment, and then driving them back afterwards. For that effort, clubs can offer a great selection of Innova discs (but no other brands). Then there are vendors who run their own tournaments, but don't cater for others.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

One thing I keep seeing at tournaments that should not happen is a local club doing the payout themselves. This should not be happening at tournaments. Hire an actual disc golf vendor to do the payout, unless your club has a lot of discs to offer to people (more than 500). Buying 150 discs and using that for the AM payout is just not a good idea. It makes AMS more mad - just take a cut from the vendor you hire from the event and let them sell the discs.

AMs are lucky to get such a good value when playing tournaments. If a club went about this the right way they could seemingly build a pretty good stock of dics. What makes any old vendor better? Id argue it all depends who you work with.

 

[DavidSauls]

Building a stock of discs is time (and money) consuming. 500 discs is around $5,000 at wholesale. If you plow tournament profits into building up stock, it'll take you years to get to 500. And someone's got to store them. In the meantime, you're not using the profits for the club or course.

Of course, the club could get into the disc-selling business outside of tournaments. That's a whole lot of work, too.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Not quite what i was saying but yes i understand how much work for very little $ selling discs can be.