Trophy only or payout

[Cgkdisc]

I'm for a hybrid Am payout system with some player pack value and prizes for performance, ideally with the value all in scrip unless there's something custom like hotstamp or is sponsor provided. Junior divisions could be player pack only with low entry fees. The better Juniors could play up if they want to shoot for more reward.

 

[mattw]

Just out of curiosity, because I'm sure you're not alone in how you feel, would you get (back) into tournament play if tournaments offered a "bare bones" package? Say we're talking about the hypothetical event in the OP and instead of $45 you could enter the same tournament for just $10. And that $10 would cover whatever per player expenses the TD had to cover (PDGA fees, use permits, insurance, etc) and nothing else. All you the player get is the opportunity to take part in the event and win a trophy if you place well enough...no player pack, no payouts, no side prizes (CTP, ace pool, ring of fire, etc). Would you do it?

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I think it's a logical off-shoot type question for the original premise.

I realize you are quoting someone else with this question but I am in the same boat. I don't play many tournaments part of it is the price and the other part is my level of skill. If you offered a tournament at ten bucks no payout I would gladly play and would probably play in more tournaments than I currently do. I enjoy the opportunity to hang out with some great people and I also like the structure and competitive nature of tournaments. I don't mind losing but would have an easier time with it if I was only paying between 10 and 15 dollars.

 

[kevdiv48]

The IOS tourneys in Illinois included funny money/ scrip as the player's pack. I really liked it, especially since the fly mart was well stocked.

 

[Stable]

Just out of curiosity, because I'm sure you're not alone in how you feel, would you get (back) into tournament play if tournaments offered a "bare bones" package? Say we're talking about the hypothetical event in the OP and instead of $45 you could enter the same tournament for just $10. And that $10 would cover whatever per player expenses the TD had to cover (PDGA fees, use permits, insurance, etc) and nothing else. All you the player get is the opportunity to take part in the event and win a trophy if you place well enough...no player pack, no payouts, no side prizes (CTP, ace pool, ring of fire, etc). Would you do it?

100% yes. I don't want a player's pack and have no desire to win anymore disc golf related items. I just want to compete for the opportunity to watch my player rating go up or down based on my performance. I would totally pay the $10 'bare bones' cost to cover the necessities that the TD needs to cover. Further, I wouldn't mind paying another $5 to go directly to the TD for their time and effort that it takes to organize an event. I've seen a lot of other am's get burnt out on the cost of tournament play and I think that the current system is not growing the sport. It's burning people out over time.

 

[ToddL]

Given the options between I mostly prefer payouts because (1) I'm probably in the running for a good payout, and (2) I don't trust you to give me a players' pack that I care about.

* If the course is high quality, I'll drive farther and pay more for a worse PP/payout.
* If the level of competition is high, I'll drive farther and pay a higher entry fee.
* I'd prefer to have a meager PP, preferably merch bucks instead of a prescribed handout.
* Cool trophies are pretty cool.
* I am fully aware that for other intramural sports I pay $50 for a season of 8 games, receive nothing, and the winning team gets t-shirts. (But the cost goes to fields, lights, refs, etc.)

 

[Stable]

I don't mind losing but would have an easier time with it if I was only paying between 10 and 15 dollars.

:hfive:

It's funny how many times I've found myself on a lower card during the 4th round of a tournament and heard someone say something like 'Well, I just paid $50 for a $15 disc."

 

[PWaggoner]

* I am fully aware that for other intramural sports I pay $50 for a season of 8 games, receive nothing, and the winning team gets t-shirts. (But the cost goes to fields, lights, refs, etc.)

Thats a good point.

Disc golf tournament players usually do a lot for the local courses. We maintain and put the courses in, we support ourselves. We are refs, installers, groundskeepers. No other sport i can think of has this big of a volunteer base.

I dont think its cool to the 900 rated am who can cash for prizes in intermediate not to get anything... Ever... Because he cant shoot 1000ish rated rounds. But he installed the course and helps take care of it. So only the top players who show up to take the added cash HIS club gathered get anything. And he gets a trophy and a cheer.

 

[Royal Hill]

Just out of curiosity, because I'm sure you're not alone in how you feel, would you get (back) into tournament play if tournaments offered a "bare bones" package? Say we're talking about the hypothetical event in the OP and instead of $45 you could enter the same tournament for just $10. And that $10 would cover whatever per player expenses the TD had to cover (PDGA fees, use permits, insurance, etc) and nothing else. All you the player get is the opportunity to take part in the event and win a trophy if you place well enough...no player pack, no payouts, no side prizes (CTP, ace pool, ring of fire, etc). Would you do it?

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I think it's a logical off-shoot type question for the original premise.

Its a perfect off shoot - and the same core issue that comes up over and over.

The concept of the "opt in" or "unbundled" event package at sign up. Custom online/online pay systems have made this a real option. Also, growth in event demand also is an enabler of this approach. There is one or two (or more) non obvious factors that work against this, but its possible.

"Opt in" - custom sign ups where entrant selects their "package" details at sign up and pay. Package may include other hard goods, or not, even if those hard goods are event customized or stock merchandise. Easier if added hard goods are non customized.

Demand is important - overwhelming event Demand allows for sign ups to occur well in advance to allow merchandise support/order/receive of the selected packages. No guessing. Pre paid, full received shipping fufillment pre event, no required extras. Mitigation of risk for event director.

Factors working against this method - customized goods. Customized goods (stamps, customized logo gear/goods) often are made practical based on size orders/minimums/price breaks for volume. This brings risk back into the set up as one guesses if enough people will "add" a customized good to make it feasible/cost reasonable/ set up fees. If you want to offer screened shirts, you add it as "add ten dollars" on the online toggle, but if you only get 8 people selecting shirts your per unit cost to provide will exceed that ten dollars, so its a catch and risk of loss. This is why many would "force" the shirts on all by it being incorporated into a "bundled fee". (total entry fee)

Last confounding factor I'll add on this post: An event director may be hesitant to offer a "bare bones" or "unbundled" option IF availability is fixed - especially in high demand situations. That is, IF, the revenue generation or revenue recovery is hindered by a bare bones player compared to a "full package" player. again...IF... that spot COULD be easily filled with another Full package player. In an unlimited entrant cap model, the extra bare bones player is always a plus, other than the extra added logistics that come with more people.

 

[Royal Hill]

added: I would say that an "unbundled" "opt in" or "select for package" model most likely works the best and easiest when Payout is not occurring. Likely best in a recognition only type event (trophy or otherwise). The added logistical step of sorting payout participating vs non payout participating entrants may be deemed too much of a confusion point for an event director and staffing. Too much chance for something to get misunderstood or mixed up.

 

[Royal Hill]

I realize you are quoting someone else with this question but I am in the same boat. I don't play many tournaments part of it is the price and the other part is my level of skill. If you offered a tournament at ten bucks no payout I would gladly play and would probably play in more tournaments than I currently do. I enjoy the opportunity to hang out with some great people and I also like the structure and competitive nature of tournaments. I don't mind losing but would have an easier time with it if I was only paying between 10 and 15 dollars.

Matt -

Here is something. What is your "magic number" for an event at which no "return hard good value" is expected? I believe that there are magic numbers for this. It may vary a little bit across North America, but I believe the numbers are:

Under $20 for a one round "event" (event fits inside a twenty dollar bill)
$25 for a two round event.

I believe up to those numbers (or substitute your own) it is entirely possible that those participating see the money leaving them to the event as freely given for the event and they no longer hold attachment to that money still being "their money". Freely given, value of participation, no expectations beyond possible Recognition.

At a certain number - many reading this will recognize this - there are those that will feel that "their money" is still out there in the event and has to "come back to them". The money in that cash box now has strings - and that tourney central is "holding their money" that they still feel ownership to, even though it was already given.

 

[Pbmercil]

Thats a good point.

Disc golf tournament players usually do a lot for the local courses. We maintain and put the courses in, we support ourselves. We are refs, installers, groundskeepers. No other sport i can think of has this big of a volunteer base.

And that exactly why I am totally OK with paying a high-ish entry fee at a true am event, even if I don't like the players packs. True Am events are the perfect way for local clubs to raise money for more courses, course maintenance, ect. Frankly I'd PREFER if fewer TD's/clubs sunk the merch wholesale/retail differential back into the tourney and instead used their events as fundraisers to support the local courses. We need to be able to pay our own way and keep our own courses up, and I think true Am events are a great venue to do that in.

 

[sidewinder22]

IMO opt-in player packages is not worth the hassle as TD. At that point you are just selling merch to specific players. I also don't think that player packages should really be over $20 worth unless it's a major event.

There are AMs that would rather play cheap/trophy only, and there are AMs that wish to receive payouts. I think AMs should start their own side bets/pools if they wish to receive a payout, that way they can just win cash and do whatever they want with it.

 

[mark996]

Disc golf tournament players usually do a lot for the local courses. We maintain and put the courses in, we support ourselves. We are refs, installers, groundskeepers. No other sport i can think of has this big of a volunteer base.

Mountain biking may be close. We build and maintain the trail, and marshal during races etc, but aside from those two they're a rare breed.

As far as trophy + players pack, I love it as long as the winnings are decent when it comes to "payout" of products. I don't want another identical players pack for coming in the top 3.

 

[Phlick]

AM player here. Why all or nothing? With a $45 entry fee, I'd much rather have a $45 players pack and then $25/person going towards payout then a $70 players pack for everyone.

 

[mark996]

Reading comprehension fail. I'd still play in the event. I thought there was merchandise separate of the players packs for the winners, not just a trophy. Heh.

 

[joshmo65]

AM player here. Why all or nothing? With a $45 entry fee, I'd much rather have a $45 players pack and then $25/person going towards payout then a $70 players pack for everyone.

The main problem in my consideration for this is that our club doesn't really have a stock of discs right now. So, in order to have enough discs for payout where everyone gets at least something that they might like, I would need to purchase 2 to 3 times the discs that are going to sell. This would be a huge money sink and would guarantee that this tournament would not break even. While I understand that the club would then have a stock of discs for future tournaments, it would mean that we would be required to maintain the stock. That is money invested in plastic that we cannot put back into the courses. In addition, since this would be our first order to start to build up a stock, it would probably be from only one company, so the people who don't throw that company will be SOL.

I personally prefer trophy only tournaments. With trophy only, you can go home as soon as awards are done. It sucks having to fight through the other 40 people that cashed and go through discs that you probably wont ever throw wasting an extra hour before you can finally go home after the event.

 

[mark996]

Could do..players pack for first X amount registered, then merchandise payouts for top # of players + top 3 trophys/plaques whatever.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Disc golf tournament players usually do a lot for the local courses. We maintain and put the courses in, we support ourselves. We are refs, installers, groundskeepers. No other sport i can think of has this big of a volunteer base.

Mountain biking may be close. We build and maintain the trail, and marshal during races etc, but aside from those two they're a rare breed.

Disc Golf is far from unique and MTB is hardly the only example. The number of fringe sports out there that wouldn't continue to exist without volunteer bases with size and scope much bigger than DG is large. Hell the reason you mention MTB is because small events seem the same but on the big scene it is very big. On a smaller scene every sport, even the big names exist in the same way DG does. Local soccer for example. Biggest sport in the world, yet at the local level fields wouldn't be playable without volunteers, sponsorship is generally local only businesses and leagues and tournaments (most of which would look at you like you've lost your mind if you were asking for payout or complaining about something more than a T-shirt for your entry) can only happen through volunteers or those getting some measly fee from tournament entry fees.

Biggest difference between DG and many other sports is frankly the mixture of PRO and AM players. The number of elite pros vs the number of amateurs who are on par with most pros is pretty unique, and a lot of the sports out there that exist with those numbers simply have no professional venue so there aren't any.

 

[DiscLoser1]

Like most topics in DG, it looks like there's a million different opinions and preferences.

So, I'll give mine. I chose 'play the tournament' in the poll, because I enjoy the challenge of tournament play, and would be more likely to play if I thought the course was a good/great one.

Player's packs are unnecessary to me. I thank the TD profusely, but often don't take discs in a player pack, though I've gotten shirts that I proudly wear, and have played in a trophy-only with a big player pack that had a $100 entry fee.

I've got plenty of discs, so I rarely take my plastic payout, unless I need to replace a disc or there's one I think will fit my bag; even then I don't 'spend' all my winnings.

 

[scarpfish]

I often pay more than $45 for payout events now. Why not.

The two hours to get there might be sticking issue.