Trying to fix last year issue.

[texhop58]

I ran my first PDGA event last year. And overall I felt it was successful. I did have one big issue, as I think I set the record for penalty strokes assessed to players card. We have one temp hole we added that I marked as a par 5. Well this seemed to screw up every ones count. I posted on the scorecard Par 56 and even went over in the player meeting. First round comes in and first card was ok, next one was wrong, few more came in right, then a bunch of wrong. Out of my 67 players, I probably had 35 of them with incorrect scores. Which upset a lot of people when they see their scores posted online with the penalty strokes. So before I send players back out for round 2 I hold a quick td meeting and explain what everyone was doing and how to fix it. Well round 2 comes back and I still have 12 or so scores wrong.

So what can I do to help combat this. Just not put Par at the top let them just figure scores?

For those not understanding what they did
3,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,3,3,3,2,3,4,(par 5 hole)5,3,3,3=58
they would then add it up and go ok we are 4 over, par is 56 so its a 60

 

[biscoe]

unless there is some other factor lurking somewhere it seems like pure player error- with that many errors it seems like there is some other issue though. i have run hundreds of events on courses where par varies from 54-72 and never had more than a few miscounts in a round. it is elementary school math after all.

 

[JC17393]

Were all the erroneous scores off by two exactly? Is it crystal clear that players were using the "everything is a 3" trick to total up the card, then adding the result to 56 rather than 54? If so, then yes, the simplest fix is probably to remove par from the scorecard. But with that many errors in a single round (over 50% of the field?), it does seem like there must be something else going on.

Like biscoe, I've run plenty of tournaments on courses with pars ranging all over the place. Many of our local courses' scorecards, which are used for tournaments, show "rec" par for the course (so it could show a par 70 for a course where the "pro" par is 54). I've never had more than a couple math errors in totaling cards at any given event, and certainly no one has counted based on "par 3" then added/subtracted from the listed par on the scorecard.

All that said, if it was as simple as 35 out of 67 players conflating "everything is a 3" and the listed par, my response to them as a TD when they complain about the penalties is to suck it up and pay better attention to what they're doing.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I ran my first PDGA event last year. And overall I felt it was successful. I did have one big issue, as I think I set the record for penalty strokes assessed to players card. We have one temp hole we added that I marked as a par 5. Well this seemed to screw up every ones count. I posted on the scorecard Par 56 and even went over in the player meeting. First round comes in and first card was ok, next one was wrong, few more came in right, then a bunch of wrong. Out of my 67 players, I probably had 35 of them with incorrect scores. Which upset a lot of people when they see their scores posted online with the penalty strokes. So before I send players back out for round 2 I hold a quick td meeting and explain what everyone was doing and how to fix it. Well round 2 comes back and I still have 12 or so scores wrong.

So what can I do to help combat this. Just not put Par at the top let them just figure scores?

For those not understanding what they did
3,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,3,3,3,2,3,4,(par 5 hole)5,3,3,3=58
they would then add it up and go ok we are 4 over, par is 56 so its a 60

Veteran TDs have discovered it's a good idea to never put hole pars on the scorecard for this reason. Hole pars if different from all 3s still need to be shown on printed handouts or caddie books and printed tee signs for the event if different from the par indicated on permanent signs.

 

[CreemCheese]

Veteran TDs have discovered it's a good idea to never put hole pars on the scorecard for this reason. Hole pars if different from all 3s still need to be shown on printed handouts or caddie books and printed tee signs for the event if different from the par indicated on permanent signs.

There's nothing worse than that guy who insists on putting score to par down instead of actual stroke count. Except for the guy who doesn't even put a "+" next to it, so his card looks like he took a 2 when actually went ob and got a 5

 

[Steve West]

Veteran TDs have discovered it's a good idea to never put hole pars on the scorecard for this reason. Hole pars if different from all 3s still need to be shown on printed handouts or caddie books and printed tee signs for the event if different from the par indicated on permanent signs.

And if it's anything other than 18 holes, you do the multiplication (holes times 3) for them. Just put something like:

21 x 3 = 63

on the scorecard, without calling it par.

 

[biscoe]

I do not think as poorly of my player's math skills as Chuck and Steve. The math in question was presumably learned by all of them in the second grade. We often include both par and distance for holes on the scorecard.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I do not think as poorly of my player's math skills as Chuck and Steve. The math in question was presumably learned by all of them in the second grade. We often include both par and distance for holes on the scorecard.

It's not just us but the PDGA staff when assisting TDs preparing scorecards for running NTs and Major events since the early 2000s. I remember some players getting messed up when we had par 2s on all four courses used in PW2001 and some in PW2002.

 

[biscoe]

Catering to the least common denominator is admittedly not my thing.

 

[Discette]

I ran my first PDGA event last year. And overall I felt it was successful. I did have one big issue, as I think I set the record for penalty strokes assessed to players card. We have one temp hole we added that I marked as a par 5. Well this seemed to screw up every ones count. I posted on the scorecard Par 56 and even went over in the player meeting. First round comes in and first card was ok, next one was wrong, few more came in right, then a bunch of wrong. Out of my 67 players, I probably had 35 of them with incorrect scores. Which upset a lot of people when they see their scores posted online with the penalty strokes. So before I send players back out for round 2 I hold a quick td meeting and explain what everyone was doing and how to fix it. Well round 2 comes back and I still have 12 or so scores wrong.

So what can I do to help combat this. Just not put Par at the top let them just figure scores?

For those not understanding what they did
3,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,3,3,3,2,3,4,(par 5 hole)5,3,3,3=58
they would then add it up and go ok we are 4 over, par is 56 so its a 60

I agree that it seems there is something else going on here. Even at events with a par that is not 54, I only see one or two scoring errors per round.

Maybe it was the way you talked about it in the player meeting that confused the players?


Plenty of TD's in this area put the par for each hole ON the scorecard. Most players seem to do ok with addition for 18 and 27 hole layouts regardless of the total par. I see more scoring errors (3 or 4 errors instead of 1 or 2) at events that have a strange number of holes (like 19 or 20 holes)


Strange but true: This year at So Cal Champs I had two rounds with ZERO scoring errors and there were 144 players! That to me is AMAZING! (I don't put pars on the card, I use a generic 18 hole card because we have two courses with two different pars and I save on printing with one scorecard format.) I never make mention of par in player meetings, although par for each hole is on the caddy sheet along with total par for the course. Again, I never mention par in the player meeting unless someone asks. Then I say something like everything is par three except Holes 4 and 8 which are par four.


I think the solution would be: DON'T mention the total par in the player meeting. The only time par on a hole really matters is if a player shows up late AND for proper rating generation.

Can you provide link to last year's event?

 

[krupicka]

My response when player's ask me what par is for the round: "You don't really want to know what par is, but you do want to know that 3x21=63."

 

[kenjiac]

Par has no bearing on scoring errors. It's simple math. I check scorecards with everything relative to 3. Doesn't matter what par is. 18x3=54. We list pars on our scorecards. I like to just remind players that scoring errors get a 2 stroke penalty and to check their math. Say this repeatedly as players are handing in the scorecards. I also like to confirm that all players checked the card when it was turned in. If just one player comes up and turns in the card i just ask did everyone check this? Also no one is immune to the penalty stokes. I've had to stoke the TD once. LOL

 

[biscoe]

Years ago every player was required to initial the scorecard prior to it being turned in. IMO ceasing to require that was a step backwards on this issue.

 

[JC17393]

I think the solution would be: DON'T mention the total par in the player meeting. The only time par on a hole really matters is if a player shows up late AND for proper rating generation.

Can you provide link to last year's event?

Par is irrelevant to ratings calculations.

 

[texhop58]

Well it truly surprised me that I Had so many. The event was held in an area that's kind of void in disc golf events. Im sure during minis they just fix the score card and go with it. But every person who came up to complain about it, I showed them what they did, and they were pissed, but pissed at themselves for making such a stupid mistake. After about the third or fourth wrong card I wanted to stop everyone and have them re-check, but the first couple of wrong cards had already left for lunch. I didn't feel it was right or fair of me to tell everyone else and not them. One, because I mentioned it in player meeting and two being my first event I Didn't want to give people a reason to complain like saying you told them but not us, that's because you are friends with them.

 

[texhop58]

Were all the erroneous scores off by two exactly? Is it crystal clear that players were using the "everything is a 3" trick to total up the card, then adding the result to 56 rather than 54? If so, then yes, the simplest fix is probably to remove par from the scorecard. But with that many errors in a single round (over 50% of the field?), it does seem like there must be something else going on.

Like biscoe, I've run plenty of tournaments on courses with pars ranging all over the place. Many of our local courses' scorecards, which are used for tournaments, show "rec" par for the course (so it could show a par 70 for a course where the "pro" par is 54). I've never had more than a couple math errors in totaling cards at any given event, and certainly no one has counted based on "par 3" then added/subtracted from the listed par on the scorecard.

All that said, if it was as simple as 35 out of 67 players conflating "everything is a 3" and the listed par, my response to them as a TD when they complain about the penalties is to suck it up and pay better attention to what they're doing.

Majority of them were off by 2. I think I had two that were off by other numbers.

 

[texhop58]

I agree that it seems there is something else going on here. Even at events with a par that is not 54, I only see one or two scoring errors per round.

Maybe it was the way you talked about it in the player meeting that confused the players?


Plenty of TD's in this area put the par for each hole ON the scorecard. Most players seem to do ok with addition for 18 and 27 hole layouts regardless of the total par. I see more scoring errors (3 or 4 errors instead of 1 or 2) at events that have a strange number of holes (like 19 or 20 holes)


Strange but true: This year at So Cal Champs I had two rounds with ZERO scoring errors and there were 144 players! That to me is AMAZING! (I don't put pars on the card, I use a generic 18 hole card because we have two courses with two different pars and I save on printing with one scorecard format.) I never make mention of par in player meetings, although par for each hole is on the caddy sheet along with total par for the course. Again, I never mention par in the player meeting unless someone asks. Then I say something like everything is par three except Holes 4 and 8 which are par four.


I think the solution would be: DON'T mention the total par in the player meeting. The only time par on a hole really matters is if a player shows up late AND for proper rating generation.

Can you provide link to last year's event?

During the player meeting I said, "a" hole is a par 5 today so total par is 56. (we are a 16 hole course and holes A/B are between 14/15)

here is the link https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/31596

maybe part of it is it was many players first event or first year playing events. But even my seasoned pros made the mistake

 

[Discette]

During the player meeting I said, "a" hole is a par 5 today so total par is 56. (we are a 16 hole course and holes A/B are between 14/15)

here is the link https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/31596

maybe part of it is it was many players first event or first year playing events. But even my seasoned pros made the mistake

I looked at the event results. I could not tell anything about the scoring, but I absolutley LOVE <3 your email address! You should get that on a license plate.

 

[texhop58]

I know. It was one of those oh moments. IowaParkdiscgolf was too long. Well the town logo has always been the IP. So just made sense. Then as soon as I did it. Was like. OH. OH WELL

 

[DavidSauls]

I agree that it seems there is something else going on here. Even at events with a par that is not 54, I only see one or two scoring errors per round.

Maybe it was the way you talked about it in the player meeting that confused the players?


Plenty of TD's in this area put the par for each hole ON the scorecard. Most players seem to do ok with addition for 18 and 27 hole layouts regardless of the total par. I see more scoring errors (3 or 4 errors instead of 1 or 2) at events that have a strange number of holes (like 19 or 20 holes)


Strange but true: This year at So Cal Champs I had two rounds with ZERO scoring errors and there were 144 players! That to me is AMAZING! (I don't put pars on the card, I use a generic 18 hole card because we have two courses with two different pars and I save on printing with one scorecard format.) I never make mention of par in player meetings, although par for each hole is on the caddy sheet along with total par for the course. Again, I never mention par in the player meeting unless someone asks. Then I say something like everything is par three except Holes 4 and 8 which are par four.


I think the solution would be: DON'T mention the total par in the player meeting. The only time par on a hole really matters is if a player shows up late AND for proper rating generation.

Can you provide link to last year's event?

All of this.

We've been putting par on the scorecards, and I've been seeing it on scorecards where I play, forever. I don't think I've ever seen a math error that could be blamed on it. I'm not sure I've ever seen an entire scorecard with math errors, at all. Though when I'm in a group and we're doing the initial tallies, the most common error is, as Discette cites, courses with an unusual number of holes.

I go along with the suggestion of not mentioning total par in the players meeting---not because it should cause a problem, but because there's no reason to. For the 99.9% of players who will play every hole, it's not important.