Two lanes....... ?

[Sheep]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

I can with more certainty say I don't 100% agree.

I think I see the idea here, but... There were a few really... Weird comments and demonstrations.

I can also say I don't think he understands the elephant walk/drill.

 

[Sheep]

I teach something sorta similar, but it's 1 line and its all about learning your footwork to achieve the target line.

Some big assumptions at the start with the why pro's randomly look and wiggle their disc.

As for the intended flight path and other things, 100% agree.

As for the backing down the "rail/line" they intend to walk up on, I 100% disagree.

Most players when throwing usually move corner to corner on the tee pad.
Not up one side of the tee pad then suddenly straddle across.

Different shot shapes also require you to move your footwork around the tee pad a bit differently as well. Especially if you're more into the Feldberg method of footwork.

The simon thing.
Hilarious.

I've forgotten most of it now, it's been a few hours since I've watched it. Wanted to see what retained.


I don't want this to sound like a poo poo attack on Josh.
Cause I think I see what he's trying to work through here. But this is just another case to me of why its so important that we all have discussions and are open with our techniques and idea's. That way when we do something that seems off or wrong or weird, we are forced to defend our idea/method to either drop it because its bad and falls flat, or to strengthen our ability to teach and explain it.

Nothing grows what we do faster than open dialog. (and yes, thats what I'm here for, not to be mean, even though I just seem mean)

 

[bryantlikes]

Fixing embed code

 

[Sheep]

Fixing embed code

doggonit.

And long passed being able to edit.

Hopefully a moderator can fix it for me.

 

[seedlings]

I don't know about off the tee thinking two lines, BUT if I'm throwing out of the woods and need to hit a nearby gap, I must take into account where my arm and disc are. Look at the gap not just from behind the lie, but from behind the disc position.

 

[timothy42b]

I thought I'd seen Two Lanes somewhere before, but it was Brian Earhart talking about the X-Step.

 

[sidewinder22]

I thought I'd seen Two Lanes somewhere before, but it was Brian Earhart talking about the X-Step.

The concept has been around.

Spinout & Throw talked about the 2 train tracks.

J Ray demonstrates it here briefly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI9tUrjjwXk&t=300s

I talked about the ladder drill and demonstrate, didn't think it really needed to be coined. This video was actually released 2017 before any of those others, but I doubt I was the first to talk about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwy1HNMfhbk&t=200s

 

[Sheep]

This is one of the best ways to teach people to move laterally with a good x-step and learn to drive into the plant and stay balanced and athletic.

I think its a really legit way to warm up the hips and balance as well.

 

[arska]

The concept has been around.

Spinout & Throw talked about the 2 train tracks.

J Ray demonstrates it here briefly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI9tUrjjwXk&t=300s

I talked about the ladder drill and demonstrate, didn't think it really needed to be coined. This video was actually released 2017 before any of those others, but I doubt I was the first to talk about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwy1HNMfhbk&t=200s

Hi, how do you maintain depth/balance with your rear hip if you have 2 clear train tracks (own track for each foot)? You have 1 CoM so you have to get your rear foor underneath it to stay in balance?

I guess im missing something but want to learn. Thanks again!

I tried to attach picture of Mcbeth from sidewinder but not sure I got it here.

 

[TrebuchetDiscGolf]

There are three tracks. The middle rail is where your CoM floats… it will wiggle a bit but you do not ever want it to stack over the front or back rails.

The balance is dynamic… the drill cannot be done correctly moving too slow. Because you will fall over or stack the CoM over a foot rail instead of the 3rd center rail.

It should feel like your legs are tank treads just gliding you sideways. The individual steps should be as fluid and unnoticeable as possible.

 

[hisdudeness47]

This is one of the best ways to teach people to move laterally with a good x-step and learn to drive into the plant and stay balanced and athletic.

I think its a really legit way to warm up the hips and balance as well.

I also learned a great warmup the other day. This is no joke.

 

[Brychanus]

This is all interesting.

On the Address and What Pros Do
There's a lot of variety in how pros line up their shots, and it looks like most of them use different address tricks or practice swings at different times. I'm coarsely splitting these into mechanics vs. visualization (of the line) - heavy addresses

Mechanics-heavy addresses:

Looks like SW22 will visualize a line and the slash through the hit while planted closed:

What's Simon doing here? Looks like pantomiming his walkup and swinging/slashing in swing posture through his hit point. Doesn't look like standing at the top of the pad open holding the disc at the angle:

Looks like Mason is loading his shift and swing very aggressively:

Visualization-heavy addresses:
Here's one where Simon does something similar to what Josh mentions.

Sometimes SW22 will visualize more open to target. Notice he's in the woods trying to finesse a Comet to the basket whereas before he was in the open.

Hybrids

Lots of them out there.

E.g. Here's Paul mixing a bit of both (open stance visualizing while slashing through a hitpoint).

Here's Simon planting open but with a little bit more slash through than his "visualizing" one above.


When should you do which?
I dunno, but this made me realize that without thinking about it, I now tend to do things more like the visualization-heavy addresses when it's a slightly touchier shot or very comfortable line. I tend to do the mechanics-heavy addresses especially when I'm doing something like a power hyzerflip in a tunnel where I really need to know where my release point is and where my plant should land. I also do it if I want to mash on something in the open so I increase the chances that I get a clean power stroke.

If my release point feels dodgy during a round it really helps to first visualize open to the target, then slow down and move more like Simon or Mason and try to feel out the shift and release point. I do that more often when I'm playing solo or with one other person and it shows up on my scorecard.

 

[Brychanus]

On Tracks and CoM/CoG in Dynamic Balance

The concept has been around.

Spinout & Throw talked about the 2 train tracks.

J Ray demonstrates it here briefly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI9tUrjjwXk&t=300s

I talked about the ladder drill and demonstrate, didn't think it really needed to be coined. This video was actually released 2017 before any of those others, but I doubt I was the first to talk about it.
(good content above in this thread)

This is one of the best ways to teach people to move laterally with a good x-step and learn to drive into the plant and stay balanced and athletic.

I think its a really legit way to warm up the hips and balance as well.

I find these very helpful and do them as part of my plyo workouts. You can also do them with weights to help you feel the ground pressure and rock. For DG, heading into the last stride, I do think most of us need a lot of additional work on staying in dynamic posture and leading with the center through the range of motion you need for a smash (Hershyzer, Door Frame, Load the Bow).

Hi, how do you maintain depth/balance with your rear hip if you have 2 clear train tracks (own track for each foot)? You have 1 CoM so you have to get your rear foor underneath it to stay in balance?

I guess im missing something but want to learn. Thanks again!

I tried to attach picture of Mcbeth from sidewinder but not sure I got it here.

Let the CoM sway back and forth with the motion while moving laterally. Many of us get our CoM, spine, and head stuck between the feet in one way or another when we're moving.

There are three tracks. The middle rail is where your CoM floats… it will wiggle a bit but you do not ever want it to stack over the front or back rails.

The balance is dynamic… the drill cannot be done correctly moving too slow. Because you will fall over or stack the CoM over a foot rail instead of the 3rd center rail.

It should feel like your legs are tank treads just gliding you sideways. The individual steps should be as fluid and unnoticeable as possible.

I respectfully disagree with part of the three track idea, or at least am focused on it differently depending on what you mean.

Notice in SW22 moving down the hall there is West (wall in front of him) to East (wall behind him) movement as his spine sways over his feet. The CoM moves more than the three track idea suggests in the West direction. When he lands on the front foot (the crush), the CoM is stacked vertically over the plant foot.

Not about the track but conceptually important: when he crosses behind, the CoM doesn't appear to stack vertically over the rear foot, but keep in mind that the backswing/X-/crossover step loads by allowing the rear hip to open up and away from the target, setting up the torque force that you want to commit to the shot when you plant, and the pressure doesn't often land all the way into the back heel the way it does when you plant to swing. The imaginary line I drew on SW22 from head to foot represents the dynamic balance through the CoM in the backswing/crossover step.

In the backswing he's braced like the skiier. The same is true when he plants:

I'm also not sure about the "too slow" comment. Take what SW22 is doing down the hall (which is slower than J Ray above)

and you get Simon here (e.g. timestamp 5:05). Or SW22 here (e.g., 0:45). I'm sure we could find slower examples if we look around.

I think the slower you do it, the most mastery you have over the dynamic balance back and forth. You should also be able to uptempo it like you would when powering up a shot. I bet if many of us posted our ladder agility drills (slow or fast) we'd find we aren't as balanced as efficiently as we could be.

But I may misunderstand or be missing something, so I put the work into getting these examples together for discussion.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

"Six lanes of traffic.... Two lanes.. Moving, slooowooow"

 

[Brychanus]

"Six lanes of traffic.... Two lanes.. Moving, slooowooow"

 

[Sheep]

Made me think of

 

[Sheep]

There are three tracks. The middle rail is where your CoM floats… it will wiggle a bit but you do not ever want it to stack over the front or back rails.

The balance is dynamic… the drill cannot be done correctly moving too slow. Because you will fall over or stack the CoM over a foot rail instead of the 3rd center rail.

It should feel like your legs are tank treads just gliding you sideways. The individual steps should be as fluid and unnoticeable as possible.

I respectfully disagree with part of the three track idea, or at least am focused on it differently depending on what you mean.

Notice in SW22 moving down the hall there is West (wall in front of him) to East (wall behind him) movement as his spine sways over his feet. The CoM moves more than the three track idea suggests in the West direction. When he lands on the front foot (the crush), the CoM is stacked vertically over the plant foot.

Not about the track but conceptually important: when he crosses behind, the CoM doesn't appear to stack vertically over the rear foot, but keep in mind that the backswing/X-/crossover step loads by allowing the rear hip to open up and away from the target, setting up the torque force that you want to commit to the shot when you plant, and the pressure doesn't often land all the way into the back heel the way it does when you plant to swing. The imaginary line I drew on SW22 from head to foot represents the dynamic balance through the CoM in the backswing/crossover step.

I think I see where he was going here Brychanus.
He was trying to bring some sort of validity to the actual concept that Josh is presenting with a bit more clarity as Josh is leaving so much out of the discussion trying to break it down.

Plus the other overwhelming issue with this whole concept is the train track has always been taught as foot work, not as disk space and personal space.

So, he's trying to bridge the 2 concepts.

Mainly Josh made a grave error here by not studying up on what came before him, and then explaining some things incorrectly from the get go, which you posted about and I'll comment in the next post.

I'm also not sure about the "too slow" comment. Take what SW22 is doing down the hall (which is slower than J Ray above)


and you get Simon here (e.g. timestamp 5:05). Or SW22 here (e.g., 0:45). I'm sure we could find slower examples if we look around.

I think the slower you do it, the most mastery you have over the dynamic balance back and forth. You should also be able to uptempo it like you would when powering up a shot. I bet if many of us posted our ladder agility drills (slow or fast) we'd find we aren't as balanced as efficiently as we could be.

But I may misunderstand or be missing something, so I put the work into getting these examples together for discussion.

This is the dance theory coming to light.
Practicing it slow allows you to put effort in to the positions and angles, etc.
But it should be looked at as something we put some level of fluidity and grace into over time, like dance where when we get better, the flow and the speed become more "natural."

With SW22's image there, it was more of a "demonstrate concept"
With JRay's image of it.
Have ya'll met JRay? He doesn't miss dinner. He's not the most athletic guy.
I think I can take him on a Rib Eat off though.

 

[Sheep]

This is all interesting.

On the Address and What Pros Do
There's a lot of variety in how pros line up their shots, and it looks like most of them use different address tricks or practice swings at different times. I'm coarsely splitting these into mechanics vs. visualization (of the line) - heavy addresses

Mechanics-heavy addresses:

Looks like SW22 will visualize a line and the slash through the hit while planted closed:

What's Simon doing here? Looks like pantomiming his walkup and swinging/slashing in swing posture through his hit point. Doesn't look like standing at the top of the pad open holding the disc at the angle:

Looks like Mason is loading his shift and swing very aggressively:

Visualization-heavy addresses:
Here's one where Simon does something similar to what Josh mentions.

Sometimes SW22 will visualize more open to target. Notice he's in the woods trying to finesse a Comet to the basket whereas before he was in the open.

Hybrids

Lots of them out there.

E.g. Here's Paul mixing a bit of both (open stance visualizing while slashing through a hitpoint).

Here's Simon planting open but with a little bit more slash through than his "visualizing" one above.


When should you do which?
I dunno, but this made me realize that without thinking about it, I now tend to do things more like the visualization-heavy addresses when it's a slightly touchier shot or very comfortable line. I tend to do the mechanics-heavy addresses especially when I'm doing something like a power hyzerflip in a tunnel where I really need to know where my release point is and where my plant should land. I also do it if I want to mash on something in the open so I increase the chances that I get a clean power stroke.

If my release point feels dodgy during a round it really helps to first visualize open to the target, then slow down and move more like Simon or Mason and try to feel out the shift and release point. I do that more often when I'm playing solo or with one other person and it shows up on my scorecard.

I'm not gonna really answer into the points of individual things here, but in general.

The idea that Josh pushed in the video about shot visualization and "backing down the track" is completely false.
Could there be players out there doing it that way? Yes, maybe a few.
Players who do stand at the Tee pad end and look down their shot.
Chris Dickerson.
But he will also usually do a practice swing or 2 as well.

It's vastly important to visualize your apex, angles and target line. How you do this is up to you as the player.

But considering we rarely move in the line of which we are throwing, this sort of shoots down the idea he's presenting.

Your target might be in line with the tee pad edge, per say, but we don't walk down the edge of the tee pad, for a RHBH throw, you'll usually move from the back right to the left front of the tee pad over the course of the steps. Not along the right edge the whole way.

Especially when it comes to power throws, Pro's stagger their direction to the target more aggressively to push more weight forward into their plant in the target direction as well as forward in their stance for their stagger.


Is the concept being approached with the 2 rails here viable?
I think its a bit different way to look at it if you want to adapt it more properly worded and taught to help with people who have hugging or rounding issues.

If the video was presented in a way as "this is to help you fix X and Y" then it would make more sense.
But this is more like a "this is how you should be playing disc golf."

 

[sidewinder22]

Have ya'll met JRay? He doesn't miss dinner. He's not the most athletic guy.

Maybe not the most athletic, but I'd wager he is more athletic than most people(or think).

GG doesn't look very athletic but certainly he is.

 

[Sheep]

Maybe not the most athletic, but I'd wager he is more athletic than most people(or think).

GG doesn't look very athletic but certainly he is.

I get to see JRay quite a bit being he's a Memphis guy and he comes over here to Nashville quite often.

I wasn't implying he cannot move athletically at all.
But he's definitely not "lean and mean."