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Uli's walking putt

That jump-approach isn't really what most people are talking about in this thread. Also, being in the air when you let go of the disc negates all advantages of a jump putt.

When called on a foot fault you get another shot the first time, the second time it's a penalty.

You ALWAYS have to re-throw. First time, second time, eighth time, it's a re-throw every time. First time is a warning and re-throw, subsequent violations are a penalty and re-throw.

The logic of re-throwing on a stance violation is you don't get to play from your illegally thrown shot. The result of that illegally thrown shot shouldn't play a factor in deciding to call it (people who call it on a good throw but not on a bad, for example).

Frankly, I'd be all for eliminating the warning and going straight to the penalty if it means people will be less inclined to ignore violations because they don't want to give a player the "advantage" of re-throwing a shot. I'd be all for eliminating all warnings from the rule book and going straight to a penalty on all violations (courtesy, stance, excessive time, etc) if it meant people would actually make calls when they are warranted. Or the inverse...if it meant people would work harder to not violate particular rules because the first violation carried a penalty rather than a warning.

And in response to the "the rule is messed up" thing...I challenge people who feel that way to write a rule that succinctly and easily covers the things they want to see eliminated from the game. Write a rule that makes jump or step putts 100% illegal to even attempt. I'm not saying the rule as is is perfect but I've yet to hear or read a workable alternative to it that doesn't open up its own can of worms (most often worse than the "problem" it purports to fix).
 
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I'll bite on JC's challenge. Remove 802.04C&D. Update B to:
B. When the disc is released and until balance is demonstrated, a player must:

1. Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the lie; and,
2. Have no supporting point in contact with the marker disc or any object (including the playing surface) closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
3. Have all supporting points in-bounds.
Impacts:
- Jump putts would be disallowed by 1
- Step throughs are disallowed by 2
- Run-ups are still allowed
- Verification of stance compliance is easier as the point of contact is maintained (no split second high speed video needed)

Backhand throwers would need adjust their follow through to pivot more (or less) to avoid stepping beyond the mark(#2) above. Forehand throwers typically don't have a follow-through that goes beyond the mark.

Based on some stats I took at the USDGC a couple of years ago many of the top throwers already maintain contact with the lie after releasing their disc on fairway run-ups.
 
Krupica, you solved the "problems" with putting, but don't you think the price on drives and fairway throws is too steep? It wouldn't be a small adjustment to most players. Obviously, if players continue to call the same rate as now, it wouldn't impact anybody much. I do however think that JC's challenge implied that putting was the only thing you changed the rules on.
 
I was reading about the guy who was credited with first jump shooting in basketball. It was a radical concept at the time until it was shown to work well. In the case of jump shooting, it's not a violation (traveling) unless you land before releasing your shot. It would seem like we would do well to adopt that approach where players had to leave the ground from within 30cm behind their mark and just make sure to release their throw before landing. I think it would be easier to call and add an athletic skill to the sport. I think it may also reduce and perhaps eliminate the walk-thru putt which is essentially a way to get around the current judgment calls that have to be made on putt-jumping.
 
Krupica, you solved the "problems" with putting, but don't you think the price on drives and fairway throws is too steep? It wouldn't be a small adjustment to most players. Obviously, if players continue to call the same rate as now, it wouldn't impact anybody much. I do however think that JC's challenge implied that putting was the only thing you changed the rules on.

Minor thing, but my "challenge" isn't really just pertaining to putting. By rule now, putting is defined as throws from inside the 10-meter circle. Jump/step putts are already illegal inside the circle. So in order to effectively disallow those throws, it's going to necessitate affecting all throws that aren't from the tee or inside the circle. As you point out, that's what makes trying to outlaw jump/step putting effectively so difficult.
 
I don't think the price on fairway throws (note throws from tee are under section 802.01 and not 802.04) is as steep as some make it out to be. I sat on Hole 5 at the USDGC when I was there and watched a large number of cards on their second throw to see their behaviors with regards to this. 80% already leave their plant foot in place, about 10% could easily, the other 10% would have some work. I did not note follow-through to see where the other foot landed.

I am not a big arm and so I'm not the best judge at how much distance would suffer. I'd be curious for those that are and are open-minded about this to see if there is a marked difference or not.

My original idea for the rule tweak was just to require the plant foot to stay until balance is achieved and leave the other aspects of the 10m rule alone. The Walk-thru has prompted me to consider that aspect as well.

To coupe's point. I admit I was not addressing the "demonstrate balance" question. One thing at a time. :)
 
I was reading about the guy who was credited with first jump shooting in basketball. It was a radical concept at the time until it was shown to work well. In the case of jump shooting, it's not a violation (traveling) unless you land before releasing your shot. It would seem like we would do well to adopt that approach where players had to leave the ground from within 30cm behind their mark and just make sure to release their throw before landing. I think it would be easier to call and add an athletic skill to the sport. I think it may also reduce and perhaps eliminate the walk-thru putt which is essentially a way to get around the current judgment calls that have to be made on putt-jumping.

It seems to me that the question with the step putts is whether the front foot is touching before the disc is released, not whether the back foot is up or not. So allowing a jump shot style putt would still mean the same judgement call of whether the foot hit the ground before the disc was released. But maybe I misunderstood.
 
I was reading about the guy who was credited with first jump shooting in basketball. It was a radical concept at the time until it was shown to work well. In the case of jump shooting, it's not a violation (traveling) unless you land before releasing your shot. It would seem like we would do well to adopt that approach where players had to leave the ground from within 30cm behind their mark and just make sure to release their throw before landing. I think it would be easier to call and add an athletic skill to the sport. I think it may also reduce and perhaps eliminate the walk-thru putt which is essentially a way to get around the current judgment calls that have to be made on putt-jumping.

Would this mean I could slam dunk a putt on raised basket?! :D Some behind the back and through the legs LaVine style tap outs?!
 
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Allowing jump throwing wouldn't necessarily mean it would have to be allowed within 10m. But if it were allowed, then there wouldn't need to be a 10m line at all unless we wanted the player to demonstrate balance for a 2 count after landing.

Kerplunk, I'm saying if the jump throw was allowed, the walking putt might not be used much anymore reducing the need to make a close call like that.
 
And in response to the "the rule is messed up" thing...I challenge people who feel that way to write a rule that succinctly and easily covers the things they want to see eliminated from the game. Write a rule that makes jump or step putts 100% illegal to even attempt. I'm not saying the rule as is is perfect but I've yet to hear or read a workable alternative to it that doesn't open up its own can of worms (most often worse than the "problem" it purports to fix).

"All body parts forward of the lie at release must not be supported in front of the lie prior to being supported behind the lie"

Following through is fine. Stepping putts are fine too; you just don't get the 3' of step past the lie. You get all the weight shift of a drive, if you'd like.


I don't know if that's workable ... But I was challenged.
 
I think the current rules are to avoid exactly this ... there is no legal jump-putt in DG ... ie - jumping before you putt is illegal, and yes (as you point out) there are advantages to jumping and then releasing (which in DG is supposed to be a foot fault currently). I really don't think anyone wants to a bunch of people running up to their lie and jumping as far as they can, throwing the disc at the last second, anymore than they wanted to see the leaning-fall/dunk putts back in the day. I just think the current rules should be enforced - even when someone is "a really nice guy and great player dude!".


I was reading about the guy who was credited with first jump shooting in basketball. It was a radical concept at the time until it was shown to work well. In the case of jump shooting, it's not a violation (traveling) unless you land before releasing your shot. It would seem like we would do well to adopt that approach where players had to leave the ground from within 30cm behind their mark and just make sure to release their throw before landing. I think it would be easier to call and add an athletic skill to the sport. I think it may also reduce and perhaps eliminate the walk-thru putt which is essentially a way to get around the current judgment calls that have to be made on putt-jumping.
 
I think the current rules are to avoid exactly this ... there is no legal jump-putt in DG ... ie - jumping before you putt is illegal, and yes (as you point out) there are advantages to jumping and then releasing (which in DG is supposed to be a foot fault currently). I really don't think anyone wants to a bunch of people running up to their lie and jumping as far as they can, throwing the disc at the last second, anymore than they wanted to see the leaning-fall/dunk putts back in the day. I just think the current rules should be enforced - even when someone is "a really nice guy and great player dude!".
Of course, that's what the basketball traditionalists said about the the new-fangled "jumping shot". ;)
 
I donate think there is a problem that is big enough that needs addressing, but the easiest way to do so, if one was so inclined, is to take away the "benefit of doubt goes to the thrower". Instead leave it up to the thrower to clearly demonstrate that he does not break the rules. However, I donate think it would change anything for most, where discussions still goes that no one call the stance violations in the first place.
 
The thing I really don't like about the "step putt" is it seems impossible to tell if he is actually faulting or not. It seems to me that in that case the technique should be restricted since it makes enforcement of a rule so difficult.
 
We can't prove it's illegal so stop doing it? I can't wait until disc golf adopts instant replay for calls. :\
 
this is the equivalent of Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson doing the hold dribble.

Its against the rules to dribble, palm the ball, then dribble (its a double dribble) but their hands were so big and games so smooth that they could do it even if the ball is vertical. they got the benefit of the doubt every time from the refs to continue flow of the game.
 
Maybe the people arguing this point simply couldn't master the technique effectively and are jealous and tired of watching people such as myself and Uli walk in 50-60 footers all day. :thmbup: Feldy taught me this technique in Eugene when he found out he was foot faulting at Worlds and I've practiced it ever since. Maybe the detractors should practice it and shave a few strokes off their rounds such as we have......

Devil's advocate: I will agree that Uli pushes the threshold on this and just to clarify I release quite earlier than him in my technique.
 
The thing I really don't like about the "step putt" is it seems impossible to tell if he is actually faulting or not. It seems to me that in that case the technique should be restricted since it makes enforcement of a rule so difficult.

Meh, I just have a hard time believing that anyone using a technique that's "too close to call" is getting any real benefit from it. If it's clearly a foot fault, I absolutely agree with calling it, but the rules pretty specifically say that the benefit of the doubt goes to the thrower.
 
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