What is Par?

[Texconsinite]

Par and different Layouts

An open question to anyone, but mainly admin: TIMG

One of the local courses here in AZ, Vista Del Camino (the site of the Memorial) has several pin positions for each hole, all marked on the map for that hole mounted next to the tee, (as baskets A, B, C, and so forth), with the distance for each one. However, they will only have one basket per hole, and just move them around weekly, so each time you are there, you would essentially be playing a different combo of reds, white, and blues, for different layouts.

However, I thought about what they do in ball golf. They regularly move the hole around the green, but at most courses, the yardage is painted on the tee sign in a permanent manner, so technically, that cant stay accurate either, but its good enough for ball golfers.

So, this all being said, how would you handle recording the length of each hole. Do I do a range for the different positions, (284-296ft) or just go with the most popular pin placement?? Or just write down which one each happens to be at the next time I'm there and roll with it???

I want to post specific AZ course info (like hole lengths) to the site before I move up North for good, but am a little puzzled. What is the best way to handle????

 

[timg]

Well, the site lets you record up to 3 pin positions per hole per tee and you can pick whichever one is currently active. So unless I'm misunderstanding your question, I think think that should work for inputting the lengths at the courses you mentioned. If a course has more than 3 pin positions I guess I would just omit anything above that number. Three seems to work for a majority of courses out there while keeping the hole update/info pages reasonable.

 

[ERicJ]

One of the local courses here in AZ, Vista Del Camino (the site of the Memorial) has several pin positions for each hole, all marked on the map for that hole mounted next to the tee, (as baskets A, B, C, and so forth), with the distance for each one. However, they will only have one basket per hole, and just move them around weekly, so each time you are there, you would essentially be playing a different combo of reds, white, and blues, for different layouts.

So, this all being said, how would you handle recording the length of each hole. Do I do a range for the different positions, (284-296ft) or just go with the most popular pin placement?? Or just write down which one each happens to be at the next time I'm there and roll with it???

While courses like Vista Del Camino (aka "Shelly Sharpe") with their rotating basket positions are great for play variety, they're a pain to accurately represent in a course directory.

I'd previously posted a picture of the first tee sign showing the six basket postions in that courses photo gallery:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/gallery.php?id=920&mode=gal

Complicating the matter for Vista Del Camino is the fact that not all holes have the same number of basket position. Some have four, some have six. On top of that, while hole #1 might be in 'A' position, #2 might be in 'C', #3 in 'E', etc. That can produce an exorbitant number of course layout permutations.

Well, the site lets you record up to 3 pin positions per hole per tee and you can pick whichever one is currently active.

Even if DGCR allowed six pin positions ther's no guarantee that all the baskets are in the 'A' position (or 'B', etc.) at the same time. So keeping up with the currently active postion of each individual basket would be an unreasonable task for anyone other than the people actually moving the baskets.

This type of course also makes it difficult for players to accurately enter scores into the DGCR scorebook. To be correct you'd need a set of holes with the pin assignments as they were when you played. If you're entering your score a week later and the current pin assignments had been updated you've got the wrong distances.

Perhaps the best way to represent this course given the constraints of DGCR is to use all four sets of tee assignments for 'A', 'B', 'C', and 'D' pin positions and document that in the "Course Description" field of the Info page. If you wanted you could enter 'E' and 'F' pin distances as alternate pin locations under the 'D' set of tees. At least this way all the information is there for people.

My $0.02,
ERic

 

[timg]

Wow.. that course sounds absurdly complex. I guess that would be a good system if that was the only course in town but it seems that even locals could get confused playing it.

 

[ERicJ]

Vista Del Camino

Wow.. that course sounds absurdly complex. I guess that would be a good system if that was the only course in town but it seems that even locals could get confused playing it.

I played it twice while I was out there for a racquetball tournament back in February. IIRC there weren't any blind holes so it's really not too confusing under normal circumstances since you can always see the basket at which you're throwing.

However... when I was there they were doing some course alterations to get ready for The Memorial and there were a few extra baskets out on the course for the long holes they set up for the tournament. Never having played there before, now that was confusing.

ERic

 

[magictenor1]

Gordon Barnett park in Orlando has multiple tees (3 I believe ) and hole locations with different pars for some of them. When I played there it was very difficult to decide which combo we were playing.I really prefer that the hole location not change because if you do not play a course often you can think you know where the hole is and then find out after your tee shot that it is in a different place. Multiple tees are great and do not cause the same confusion. At least that's my opinion.

 

[timg]

I've thrown a tee shot and realized upon walking up to it that the basket was in a different spot quite a few times. There was one course I played in PA that had a metal slider on the tee sign and you could indicate the current position of the basket. That was pretty handy assuming people actually updated the slider.

 

[ERicJ]

I played in PA that had a metal slider on the tee sign and you could indicate the current position of the basket. That was pretty handy assuming people actually updated the slider.

That does sound like a good idea, as long as no one maliciously messed with it.

 

[magictenor1]

par 3 vs listed par

I was just looking at The Rez in Brandon,Ms (which I have played) and the par is listed as 67 for 18 holes. Ther are 2 recorded rounds for the course of 67 and 69 which would be even and +2 however they were listed as if par were 54 (3 on each hole) so they show up as +13 and +15. Yet another example of what we face in the "what is par" debate. The good news is that a 67 is always a 67 no matter it's relation to par.

 

[timg]

The reason they're listed as +13 and +15 is that the guy entered his own par for each hole (3) rather than than choosing which par he played from the drop down which would have filled in the proper pars for each hole.

 

[magictenor1]

That was my point. He played them all as par 3's. As long as that mindset is out there you will always have this no matter how the site is set up.

 

[timg]

Ah, ok.. I misunderstood your post and thought you were questioning why it was +13. My mistake

 

[magictenor1]

That's why this thread gets so much love. People really can't agree what par is. If I recorded a 67 there it would show even because I play the listed par. Until people change or there is much more uniformity in the sport I believe we will continue to see these debates. At least it gives us something to talk about.

 

[magictenor1]

One of the reviews for the same course lists the length of some holes as a con. If you play those long holes as a 4 or 5 then the distance is not an issue. With everything as a 3 some of those holes are impossible to par(at least for the vast majority of players). It's obvious to me that the reviewer played them all as 3's.

 

[Olorin]

PA_Disc,

This thread might be of interest to you as you develop your course.

 

[gameboy9]

Hate to bring this up again, but I wish this stuff was standardized somehow. If you look at Codorus, you'll find 400 footers as par 3's... which makes no sense. So let me ask you all: if you had a perfectly flat hole with no woods whatsoever, what ranges would you make par?

So... say... 0-300 feet would be par 3, 300-500 feet as par 4, 500-700 feet as par 5, etc.

But I don't know how far a good amateur or a pro would throw, tee shot or approach shot, so I'm making these numbers up.

 

[petecarp]

the way par designation was explained to me was if a pro player can throw the disc from the tee and place it within 30 ft of the basket (the circle) then it is a par 3, 2 shots would be a par 4.

 

[nosajeel99]

Ok, here is the thing. Par really only matters if you are playing alone. It gives people a relative idea on how well you did. In tournaments, par doesn't matter, the number of throws does. So, in playing other people, the number of throws is what counts. I think we put too much emphasis on par, maybe because it is easier to say (or more ego-boosting to say) we shot a 19-under-par as opposed to a 53.

As far as how to determine par, I don't have an answer for that. I just know that if my second shot is with a driver (after a decent first shot) then I add one to the "par." There are doglegs and things to take into consideration and I usually look to ball golf in thinking about pars. If it takes 2 good shots to get to the "green" (which I classify as 50') then I also add one to the par. Some holes are designed to take two drives (drive/layup) to get to putting range, especially newer courses. I am pretty strict, though, when it comes to coming up with my own par for a hole, and if it is borderline, I usually pick the lower par (par 3 instead of par 4).

Also, I don't pay much attention to par on signs and think most signage is generous in par anyways.

 

[edge3281]

I find it easiest to play everything as a par 3. I don't have to worry about if the course is marked well or not. The switch to doing that was kinda hard since I went from double digit below par to 2 over .

 

[Three Putt]

Hate to bring this up again, but I wish this stuff was standardized somehow. If you look at Codorus, you'll find 400 footers as par 3's... which makes no sense. So let me ask you all: if you had a perfectly flat hole with no woods whatsoever, what ranges would you make par?

So... say... 0-300 feet would be par 3, 300-500 feet as par 4, 500-700 feet as par 5, etc.

But I don't know how far a good amateur or a pro would throw, tee shot or approach shot, so I'm making these numbers up.

It depends on the tee. For a red tee a flat open 400ft hole would be a par 4. For a white tee it is borderline...if it has no elevation and no trees I'd call it a par 3; put a couple of random trees in the fairway and you can make it a par 4. For a Blue tee it is an easy par 3.

An abstract rule of thumb for an open hole to be a par 4 is Red: 350 ft. White: 400 ft. Blue: 475 ft. Gold: 600 ft. An open par five for Red: 600 ft. White: 700 ft. Blue: 800 ft. Gold: 900 ft. Trees and elevation will change these, as a 275 ft. heavily wooded uphill tunnel shot could legitimately called a Red par 4.

So, the quick answer is "it depends."