What rules infractions do you call in Tournament play?

[araytx]

I don't sign up to be a referee, so I generally don't pay any attention to the other people on my card. I call what I see, but I'm not going out of my way to watch what you do like a referee would. While you are foot-faulting in the fairway I'm at my lie looking at my shot; I really don't give a flying what you are doing. As a result all I generally see is people stepping off the tee or stance violations around the basket, and I call those. Usually when somebody on my card calls something other than those things I can't second because I honestly wasn't watching.

I guess I'm also disagreeing with that big time, especially if we're talking about sanctioned events. I do believe there's still a requirement that you be a certified official in order to even participate in tournaments at a certain level. So not only are we signing up to be a referee, we are actually paying the PDGA to be one.

Should and have to are two different things. I'm not paying money to work, I'm paying to enjoy some disc golf. If I wanted to play referee I should get paid for it (or pay nothing at all), not the other way around. So if I don't see something egregious I'm not calling it.

Again, not staring down like a ref, but paying enough attention that it's still fair play. Haven't you ever played pickup basketball? Or any other self-officiated sport? It's kinda unrealistic to assume that "I'm not paying attention and I'm not calling anything unless it's egregious" and "fair play for all" are compatible in a self-officiated sport.

 

[teemkey]

In my limited experience, calling an infraction is more likely on top cards than bottom cards, and more likely in Pro and Advanced divisions. Even then, the foul has to be pretty egregious, judged by the caller to be an attempt to gain an advantage, and/or repetitious.

 

[Jay Dub]

If I'm in a foursome who has a chance to place in the money for that tournament then I'm watching everyone closer. If we're towards the back end of the division then I'll most probably only explain the rule that was broken after the fact and offer to play skins for that round.

 

[BrotherDave]

You're paying money to be part of a tournament. That involves enjoying some disc golf, and other duties. One of the duties is being a referee.

When you pay to play a casual round on a private course, you're paying just to enjoy some disc golf.

I suppose, at some point, someone could run a tournament with paid referees, and relieve players of this duty. I suspect this will involve significantly higher entry fees than we pay now.

Well when I become the infallible Son of God I'll get right to work on fulfilling all of my rulebook duties. Until then, I'll just focus on my score and not breaking any rules since I suck way too much to be concerned with what piddly rules other people might be breaking.

I guess I'm also disagreeing with that big time, especially if we're talking about sanctioned events. I do believe there's still a requirement that you be a certified official in order to even participate in tournaments at a certain level. So not only are we signing up to be a referee, we are actually paying the PDGA to be one.




Again, not staring down like a ref, but paying enough attention that it's still fair play. Haven't you ever played pickup basketball? Or any other self-officiated sport? It's kinda unrealistic to assume that "I'm not paying attention and I'm not calling anything unless it's egregious" and "fair play for all" are compatible in a self-officiated sport.

Yes and all self-officiated sports are a complete joke. They're inherently inconsistently officiated. I've never played two games of pickup ball where the rules were enforced anywhere close to the same. That's to be expected and why I've never paid money to play pickup basketball. Whenever basketball is to be taken seriously someone gets an actual referee.

Self-officiating is dumb.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Ultimate has always been self-officiating even though they now have observers at higher level events including their new pro league. Interestingly, players can agree to overturn rulings of the observers from what I understand.

 

[Discette]

I don't sign up to be a referee, so I generally don't pay any attention to the other people on my card. I call what I see, but I'm not going out of my way to watch what you do like a referee would. While you are foot-faulting in the fairway I'm at my lie looking at my shot; I really don't give a flying what you are doing. As a result all I generally see is people stepping off the tee or stance violations around the basket, and I call those. Usually when somebody on my card calls something other than those things I can't second because I honestly wasn't watching.

Should and have to are two different things. I'm not paying money to work, I'm paying to enjoy some disc golf. If I wanted to play referee I should get paid for it (or pay nothing at all), not the other way around. So if I don't see something egregious I'm not calling it.

It appears neither Three Putt nor Brother Dave are playing in PDGA events these days.....

 

[araytx]

If I'm in a foursome who has a chance to place in the money for that tournament then I'm watching everyone closer. If we're towards the back end of the division then I'll most probably only explain the rule that was broken after the fact and offer to play skins for that round.

What if you're on the second card? What if it's a second card where everyone (on 1st & second card) is within 3 throws of each other? What if you're on the third card and all top 12 are withing three strokes?

Where is your dividing line, because it sounds like you will recognize the violation and then you do make the call in some situations and you don't in others when the same thing occurs.

I'm getting at that having a standard way to handle it in all situations is what I do. It doesn't matter if it's the first round, final nine, if I'm top-carding or bottom-carding, I'll give the unofficial private talk first. It wouldn't matter if he foot faulted (for the first time I saw) and he was one stroke behind me for the lead on the last hole and he parks it, or maybe aces it. I don't "watch closer" because we're in the running or not. Because sometimes the player may not even know he violated.

 

[araytx]

Well when I become the infallible Son of God I'll get right to work on fulfilling all of my rulebook duties. Until then, I'll just focus on my score and not breaking any rules since I suck way too much to be concerned with what piddly rules other people might be breaking.

Yes and all self-officiated sports are a complete joke. They're inherently inconsistently officiated. I've never played two games of pickup ball where the rules were enforced anywhere close to the same. That's to be expected and why I've never paid money to play pickup basketball. Whenever basketball is to be taken seriously someone gets an actual referee.

Self-officiating is dumb.

SO, I am going to try hard not to be sarcastic. C'mon, self-officiating is a part of a lot of sports that are also serious.

Golf at many levels, up to at least semi-pros, all levels of amateur tennis that I know of, and I am sure there are several other sports with a reasonable degree of seriousness and competitiveness where self-officiating is a necessary part of the deed. If it weren't then people wouldn't be upset with themselves when they make a bad throw as I often see (and I admit I do sometimes). I'm not gonna concede (as I think you're trying to say) that we, the players should just accept the inconsistencies. We can responsibly and, in my opinion, without being "that guy," enforce rules pleasantly, teaching others the right way to play in a sanctioned event.

 

[Jay Dub]

What if you're on the second card? What if it's a second card where everyone (on 1st & second card) is within 3 throws of each other? What if you're on the third card and all top 12 are withing three strokes?

Where is your dividing line, because it sounds like you will recognize the violation and then you do make the call in some situations and you don't in others when the same thing occurs.

I'm getting at that having a standard way to handle it in all situations is what I do. It doesn't matter if it's the first round, final nine, if I'm top-carding or bottom-carding, I'll give the unofficial private talk first. It wouldn't matter if he foot faulted (for the first time I saw) and he was one stroke behind me for the lead on the last hole and he parks it, or maybe aces it. I don't "watch closer" because we're in the running or not. Because sometimes the player may not even know he violated.

I decide on a case by case basis depending on the current situation and I'm good with that. No reason to be drilling anyone on the last 2-3 cards about rules, their day hasn't been that good to that point anyway.
Besides, my post you quoted answers the questions you asked because of the post I posted.

 

[PhattD]

Well when I become the infallible Son of God I'll get right to work on fulfilling all of my rulebook duties. Until then, I'll just focus on my score and not breaking any rules since I suck way too much to be concerned with what piddly rules other people might be breaking.

Yes and all self-officiated sports are a complete joke. They're inherently inconsistently officiated. I've never played two games of pickup ball where the rules were enforced anywhere close to the same. That's to be expected and why I've never paid money to play pickup basketball. Whenever basketball is to be taken seriously someone gets an actual referee.

Self-officiating is dumb.

It sounds to me like you should apply your basketball philosophy to disc golf and not pay money to play a dumb self officiated sport.

 

[DavidSauls]

I decide on a case by case basis depending on the current situation and I'm good with that. No reason to be drilling anyone on the last 2-3 cards about rules, their day hasn't been that good to that point anyway.
Besides, my post you quoted answers the questions you asked because of the post I posted.

One issue with the bottom cards is we're pretty much penalty-immune. What's another 5 strokes, at that point?

 

[Three Putt]

Seriously, y'all can say it's my responsibility to referee my card but that flies in the face of reality. You might think you are acting as a referee, but if you have ever actually refereed a sport like basketball, football or baseball you would know that what happens in disc golf is a joke. I read a rule book. I took a test. So what? Did that teach me where I'm supposed to be standing or what I'm supposed to be watching? I umpired baseball for a lot of years, and there was a lot of training involved in that. You can't just know the rules, you have to anticipate and be in position to see what is happening. Where is that training? Nobody has ever said diddly to me about where I should be standing while someone is teeing to look for a foot fault. Honestly, if we were actually acting as officials there would be at least a two-person set up anytime someone threw: somebody throwing and someone in position to watch the throwers feet. We are usually milling around behind the dude in no position at all to watch their feet. You basically can't see anything useful back there, but nobody seems to think that's a problem.

So basically we call what we see. I do that. All I am doing is admitting that what I'm seeing is inadequate to actually be called officiating. If I wanted to do better, I have zero/zip/nada/no training or resources to turn to in order to do it better other than read the rule book again.

 

[Steve West]

Seriously, y'all can say it's my responsibility to referee my card but that flies in the face of reality. You might think you are acting as a referee, but if you have ever actually refereed a sport like basketball, football or baseball you would know that what happens in disc golf is a joke. I read a rule book. I took a test. So what? Did that teach me where I'm supposed to be standing or what I'm supposed to be watching? I umpired baseball for a lot of years, and there was a lot of training involved in that. You can't just know the rules, you have to anticipate and be in position to see what is happening. Where is that training? Nobody has ever said diddly to me about where I should be standing while someone is teeing to look for a foot fault. Honestly, if we were actually acting as officials there would be at least a two-person set up anytime someone threw: somebody throwing and someone in position to watch the throwers feet. We are usually milling around behind the dude in no position at all to watch their feet. You basically can't see anything useful back there, but nobody seems to think that's a problem.

So basically we call what we see. I do that. All I am doing is admitting that what I'm seeing is inadequate to actually be called officiating. If I wanted to do better, I have zero/zip/nada/no training or resources to turn to in order to do it better other than read the rule book again.

Maybe you could write up a few guidelines. I think that could be helpful.

 

[Three Putt]

Maybe you could write up a few guidelines. I think that could be helpful.

My point is I can't. I'm not sure where I'm supposed to be and what I'm supposed to be watching. If I went with my best guess of where I should be standing to be an effective official, I'd be accused of distracting the thrower. I'd need the PDGA to tell me where I'm supposed to be.

Maybe with the top players they do more of that sort of training so they can call violations? If they don't, they should.

 

[StuporShredder]

Foot faults on missed lies if it's rather pronounced (unless footing is a mess) on putts if they fall forward, showing no balance whatsoever. Courtesy can be anything, but if I should let someone's poor behavior slide, I should just get used to it, considering it will likely persist. Call BS right away if it bothers you and impacts your play. People have always caught on to the practice throw rule after I let them know of it.
It's not a big deal to bring the rules into play. Always give warnings before strokes and have good clean fun.

 

[araytx]

Seriously, y'all can say it's my responsibility to referee my card but that flies in the face of reality. You might think you are acting as a referee, but if you have ever actually refereed a sport like basketball, football or baseball you would know that what happens in disc golf is a joke. I read a rule book. I took a test. So what? Did that teach me where I'm supposed to be standing or what I'm supposed to be watching? I umpired baseball for a lot of years, and there was a lot of training involved in that. You can't just know the rules, you have to anticipate and be in position to see what is happening. Where is that training? Nobody has ever said diddly to me about where I should be standing while someone is teeing to look for a foot fault. Honestly, if we were actually acting as officials there would be at least a two-person set up anytime someone threw: somebody throwing and someone in position to watch the throwers feet. We are usually milling around behind the dude in no position at all to watch their feet. You basically can't see anything useful back there, but nobody seems to think that's a problem.

So basically we call what we see. I do that. All I am doing is admitting that what I'm seeing is inadequate to actually be called officiating. If I wanted to do better, I have zero/zip/nada/no training or resources to turn to in order to do it better other than read the rule book again.

But 3, that's the point. Yes, I've officiated many sports as both a paid and volunteer official. Certainly calling juco and college football games involved a lot of training, study, learning positioning, etc. That's not what we're discussing here. We're discussing calling what you see, so based on this response you ARE already doing that. I think what the OP was getting at was "when you see something do you call it? -- or do you ignore it?

I think what we do is closest to pickup basketball -- or amateur tennis. No way are we calling everything like an official, we can't be in position to do so while playing.

Btw I don't "look for" foot faults or "watch for" foot faults. But I do recognize one when it happens and if I happen to notice it, I'll act and not ignore. When I player is lined up incorrectly and I notice, I'll tell 'em before they throw so there's no need to make a call. I start first with the preventative officiating just as I discussed earlier. Since you've called other sports you know what I mean.

 

[Smigles]

My point is I can't. I'm not sure where I'm supposed to be and what I'm supposed to be watching. If I went with my best guess of where I should be standing to be an effective official, I'd be accused of distracting the thrower. I'd need the PDGA to tell me where I'm supposed to be.

Maybe with the top players they do more of that sort of training so they can call violations? If they don't, they should.

You should try your best to see as much of the play of the people in your card as you can. Even if you dont make a call, you have to be able to decide if you second a call or not.

Playing dumb does not relieve you of that duty.

You posting here admitting that you dont give a **** and just call things that happen to happen right in front of your nose dont make it much better.

 

[Three Putt]

Who said anything about playing dumb? What I'm saying is most of the time I am not in position to see anything. Neither are most of the other people on the card. Around the tee and around the basket is where we see things, becasue that is when we get close enough to notice.

Do I care what you are doing? No, I don't. However I'm playing Advanced Master for funsies and I'm on the bottom card. Next year I get to slip to Advanced Grandmaster. I'm not playing to be competitive and I don't care that I'm on the last card. I'm usually there becasue it's what the disc golfers are doing this weekend. Expecting me to care enough to be officiating a card is just wrong. It goes back to our events; there historically hasn't been enough of us so you run one event and expect it to keep Open players, amateurs and novices all happy when the motivation for those groups is very different. You expect me to be interested in competition and act like a competitive player becasue I'm at some "pro" event, but I'm at the event becasue it's the only ones we have. Nobody should be surprised that there are tons of players like me that have absolutely no interest in being the card babysitter for the day.

 

[BrotherDave]

It appears neither Three Putt nor Brother Dave are playing in PDGA events these days.....

It appears that Discette has nothing worthwhile to contribute.

SO, I am going to try hard not to be sarcastic. C'mon, self-officiating is a part of a lot of sports that are also serious.

None that are taken seriously.

It sounds to me like you should apply your basketball philosophy to disc golf and not pay money to play a dumb self officiated sport.

It sounds to me like you're butthurt.

Seriously, y'all can say it's my responsibility to referee my card but that flies in the face of reality.

Bingo! :clap:

Y'all are delusional as *$&# if you think that the self-officiating in our little sport, even at highest possible application, would amount to much more than a hill of beans. Jesus, can you fathom how long it would take a tourney to finish if everybody self-officiated to the best of their abilities?

Bill throws into the rough. Whole card walks over to Bill's lie and gets into position to watch for violations. Bill takes entire allotted amount of time to throw, then throws. Whole card moves over to Jamal's lie, aka the next farthest out. Repeat for every throw, for 18 holes, etc. Some players would be able to grow a beard faster it would take to finish a round. :doh:

 

[araytx]

SO, I am going to try hard not to be sarcastic. C'mon, self-officiating is a part of a lot of sports that are also serious.

None that are taken seriously.

OK, I will be then. Mr. Macho didn't like my comment about golf and tennis -- either that or your lessening the impact of those as sports. Wait I said that, you just took my comment out of context.

...Golf at many levels, up to at least semi-pros, all levels of amateur tennis that I know of, and I am sure there are several other sports with a reasonable degree of seriousness and competitiveness where self-officiating is a necessary part of the deed.

Bingo! :clap:

Y'all are delusional as *$&# if you think that the self-officiating in our little sport, even at highest possible application, would amount to much more than a hill of beans. Jesus, can you fathom how long it would take a tourney to finish if everybody self-officiated to the best of their abilities?

Bill throws into the rough. Whole card walks over to Bill's lie and gets into position to watch for violations. Bill takes entire allotted amount of time to throw, then throws. Whole card moves over to Jamal's lie, aka the next farthest out. Repeat for every throw, for 18 holes, etc. Some players would be able to grow a beard faster it would take to finish a round. :doh:

What the hay??? Who in this thread even implied that was what we were talking about? We are talking about SEEING a violation (or noticing) and then whether or not you CALL it. Nowhere have I advocated for acting, positioning, and calling like a game official in team sports. I've always compared the level of self-officiating to golf, tennis, and blacktop basketball.