"When I fixed X, Y hurt less"

[lee76007]

Last Tuesday I woke up in the morning, and my left knee (my drive knee) was aching and felt very unstable. The area around the kneecap felt loose, if that makes sense. At first I thought it might have been because I somehow slept weird on it (which very well still might be the case). But it also got me thinking, maybe the combination of my getting older-- currently sitting at 33-- combined with the over time stress of throwing 5-7 full rounds a week for the last 3 years, plus suboptimal form, have lead to strain in the ligaments on my drive knee. I was theorizing that perhaps I don't get off my drive leg the cleanest, and do a little inward jerk with my drive knee to cheat hip rotation. When I try to do this in my house with no disc in hand from a standstill, I definitely feel a lot of pressure on my knee in its current state. After I give my several days of rest from disc golf, I'm going to hit the field and see if I can remedy my drive leg, and try to get off of it as fast and smooth as possible, by really focusing on lifting my drive heel up earlier, so I can fall into my plant.

Has anybody else experienced drive knee pain due to bad mechanics?

For two months at the beginning of the year I had knee pain on the drive leg with no help with an anti-inflammatory drug. It actually hurt more to walk the course, than it did to throw, playing a few elevated courses it would throb driving home. I picked up omicron during this time and didn't throw a disc for three weeks and the pain stayed with me when I got back to field work for a week. That's when I started to search for a knee brace.

Anyway, I ordered this NEENCA Knee Brace off of amazon (the link wouldn't transfer to here) wore it about 6 hours a day, but not while discing. The pain left after 5 days, haven't worn the brace in 3 1/2 months and the knee feels good, and not sure why I had the pain for those two months. Recommended it to a friend who still had post knee surgery pain, and she tells me the pain went away gradually over a period of a month. Despite my NICU nurse wife explaining to me how the brace works, it still doesn't make any since to me how quickly the pain went away. I'm now field working a quality x-step with no discomfort. For only $20 dollars might be worth ordering for yourself?

NEENCA Knee Brace,Knee Compression Sleeve Support with Patella Gel Pad & Side Spring Stabilizers,Medical Grade Knee Protector for Running,Meniscus Tear,Arthritis,Joint Pain Relief,ACL,Injury Recovery

 

[Brychanus]

I'll see if I can get that upper body more upright and leaned back when I practice the drive foot heel raise. I used to have a super small crossover step as well, but it seems over time it has kept getting larger and larger.

Recommend trying to find a more natural transition over the stride w/ posture rocking back and forth like Hammer Swing X-step. It's fairly easy to get the posture in transition wrong. Definitely trying to get into a more athletic posture in transition w/ smaller crossover and no s-curve is important, worried about back issues down the line there too.

 

[Brychanus]

For two months at the beginning of the year I had knee pain on the drive leg with no help with an anti-inflammatory drug. It actually hurt more to walk the course, than it did to throw, playing a few elevated courses it would throb driving home. I picked up omicron during this time and didn't throw a disc for three weeks and the pain stayed with me when I got back to field work for a week. That's when I started to search for a knee brace.

Anyway, I ordered this NEENCA Knee Brace off of amazon (the link wouldn't transfer to here) wore it about 6 hours a day, but not while discing. The pain left after 5 days, haven't worn the brace in 3 1/2 months and the knee feels good, and not sure why I had the pain for those two months. Recommended it to a friend who still had post knee surgery pain, and she tells me the pain went away gradually over a period of a month. Despite my NICU nurse wife explaining to me how the brace works, it still doesn't make any since to me how quickly the pain went away. I'm now field working a quality x-step with no discomfort. For only $20 dollars might be worth ordering for yourself?

NEENCA Knee Brace,Knee Compression Sleeve Support with Patella Gel Pad & Side Spring Stabilizers,Medical Grade Knee Protector for Running,Meniscus Tear,Arthritis,Joint Pain Relief,ACL,Injury Recovery

Talked to my PT about this before - one line of thinking is that for some people when you wear the brace + reduce the pain a bit, your gait might start to self-correct because you're not compensating for the pain. So you get into a more natural locomotion pattern. He didn't recommend that as a front line of defense since most people still have gait problems w/ braces, but I thought it was interesting. Didn't fix my DG swing but it did help me get more comfortable walking again eventually (soft but firm compression sleeve).

 

[twistedraven]

Luckily my knee isn't to the point where it's hurting while walking or needing a brace, I don't think. Gave it a couple days rest and played a round today, taking my footwork extra slowly and throwing only about 60-70% at max. Focused on staying more upright while walking slower, trying to lift that rear foot up faster, and really letting a solid pendulum swing do most of the work. Ended up playing better than average, didn't feel much pain from the knee, and was still throwing pretty far with little effort, which equates to around 360 feet on pure hyzers, and maybe 380 on flat releases that fully flex out. My recent average at my local course is -2 to -4, my personal best is -8, and today I shot -5.

 

[Sheep]

Luckily my knee isn't to the point where it's hurting while walking or needing a brace, I don't think. Gave it a couple days rest and played a round today, taking my footwork extra slowly and throwing only about 60-70% at max. Focused on staying more upright while walking slower, trying to lift that rear foot up faster, and really letting a solid pendulum swing do most of the work. Ended up playing better than average, didn't feel much pain from the knee, and was still throwing pretty far with little effort, which equates to around 360 feet on pure hyzers, and maybe 380 on flat releases that fully flex out. My recent average at my local course is -2 to -4, my personal best is -8, and today I shot -5.

Rock that old man golf.
Pendulum throw, flippy stuff. Easy money.

 

[Brychanus]

When I achieved "pogo legs" in my form, I could move my hips better and hurt my knees less.

When I made a minor adjustment to my pelvic tilt, I could rock the hips more quickly and reduced strain on my lumbar region and knees.

 

[Brychanus]

When I started rocking better, my legs overall took less jerk stress. My hips became aggravated with repetitive motion, including some nasty transient plant side sciatica.

When I doing static and dynamic piriformis stretches, I reduced hip inflammation.

 

[Brychanus]

When I started allowing my shoulder to externally rotate out of the pocket into the hit, I had dramatically less stress on the throwing upper right pec, anterior shoulder, biceps, and elbow.

 

[blayed]

When I achieved "pogo legs" in my form, I could move my hips better and hurt my knees less.

When I made a minor adjustment to my pelvic tilt, I could rock the hips more quickly and reduced strain on my lumbar region and knees.

Sorry for asking about an older post, but is this referring to the "butt out" posture like you demonstrate in your last (or second to last) video? SW22 has brought up anterior pelvic tilt/spine extension in my form. I understand what it is, but dont know specifically how to implement.

 

[Brychanus]

Sorry for asking about an older post, but is this referring to the "butt out" posture like you demonstrate in your last (or second to last) video? SW22 has brought up anterior pelvic tilt/spine extension in my form. I understand what it is, but dont know specifically how to implement.

No need to apologize. My own understanding of the swing keeps evolving in any case.

The short answer is "yes, kinda."

The long answer is "it's unfortunately a little more complicated than that." There are more things things my legs, and more specifically my drive leg, have to learn to get that beautiful elite action.

I do think that "butt back, not down" is a helpful heuristic to get you to learn not to get your spine all torqued up over a tilted pelvis. It helped me get my body moving more through the thoracic region than the lumbar and saved my back.

Just remember that posture when you're moving is dynamic and is caused by mechanics interacting with each other and gravity. The ideal leg action under and with the body is somewhat different from the simple "butt back, not down" idea, but if you're having pelvic tilt problems it might be helpful to move in and out of that posture to help teach your body how the pelvis should align with the spine. You may still need to video check because some people still tilt their pelvis too much even when they get into that static stance.

I'm going to revisit the pogo legs topic soon. I don't think the phrase itself is an entirely terrible way to talk about it, but as I am learning all over again it depends very much on what we mean.

 

[Brychanus]

Wasn't sure where else to tuck this but thought it was a version of "When I fixed X, Y hurt less," but involving a friend. I'm mostly writing it because I was distressed and needed to vent. Maybe some DGCR wisdom could help.

For a while I've kept learning ways developing the swing path with a "closed shoulder" into the hit was essential to form and protecting the vulnerable shoulder tissues from harm. This seems especially true as players start adding speed and the joint can take more and more stress if it's not in a nice sturdy motion pattern. My shoulder or upper right pec area is now consistently one of the first places I feel slop in my form when I add speed and I universally treat it as a cue to slow down and keep retooling the swing heading into the release.

I had an interesting/upsetting interaction with a friend yesterday who had recently put on a reliable ~75' of easy power just from picking up a few tips I've relayed from here. I've been universally encouraging and only relay ideas when he's interested. In the past 3-4 weeks however, he was frustrated that everything was suddenly coming out anhyzer despite his best efforts to fix it. Then yesterday he hurt his shoulder. I could tell was a combo of (1) throwing in the cold with no warmup and (2) throwing with some rounding/hugging himself/open shoulder due to incomplete tilt and side bend and swinging wide resisting collapse like with a hammer - things I have communicated but that he does not really appear to work on.

I usually don't talk about other peoples' form on the course but this time he was very frustrated, and he asked me directly about what was wrong. I tried to give him a short breakdown using my plain English version of DGCR-ese. It's often easier for me to show more and say less in person, so I did. He watched and listened, then he talked about something he heard from a Stokely video ("leading with the elbow") vs. something I phrased from SW22 and related content about arm mechanics ("swinging with the shoulder/body and the arm resisting collapse"). He interpreted that they were saying different things, which made me realize I should ask him a couple questions.

So I then asked him to show me his interpretation of the Stokely advance, which was a chicken wing with a collapsed shoulder/hugging himself. His interpretation of the "swinging wide and resisting collapse" is essentially a rigid stiff arm with no elbow bend. I shared the golf-like swing analogy with smoother tension and noted how this was part of what links the Stokely advice or other swing concepts. I attempted to show him how they were fundamentally the same advice but were emphasizing different aspects of the mechanics/kinetic chain. His conclusion appeared to be that he should "take everything with a grain of salt." I might have gotten the "closed shoulder/shoulder lead" part across, but I'm not sure.

I'm hopeful that part of his response was just that he was especially frustrated and a bit hurt, and I'm sure I could have communicated better. I know in the end it's up to him, but I can't help but feel a little responsibility since he seems to look to me for input. I'm just hopeful he's ok but I'm worried that he's just going to start getting himself hurt more often now that he's tasted some distance nectar and might tend to get ahead of himself.

 

[ru4por]

Wasn't sure where else to tuck this but thought it was a version of "When I fixed X, Y hurt less," but involving a friend. I'm mostly writing it because I was distressed and needed to vent. Maybe some DGCR wisdom could help.

For a while I've kept learning ways developing the swing path with a "closed shoulder" into the hit was essential to form and protecting the vulnerable shoulder tissues from harm. This seems especially true as players start adding speed and the joint can take more and more stress if it's not in a nice sturdy motion pattern. My shoulder or upper right pec area is now consistently one of the first places I feel slop in my form when I add speed and I universally treat it as a cue to slow down and keep retooling the swing heading into the release.

I had an interesting/upsetting interaction with a friend yesterday who had recently put on a reliable ~75' of easy power just from picking up a few tips I've relayed from here. I've been universally encouraging and only relay ideas when he's interested. In the past 3-4 weeks however, he was frustrated that everything was suddenly coming out anhyzer despite his best efforts to fix it. Then yesterday he hurt his shoulder. I could tell was a combo of (1) throwing in the cold with no warmup and (2) throwing with some rounding/hugging himself/open shoulder due to incomplete tilt and side bend and swinging wide resisting collapse like with a hammer - things I have communicated but that he does not really appear to work on.

I usually don't talk about other peoples' form on the course but this time he was very frustrated, and he asked me directly about what was wrong. I tried to give him a short breakdown using my plain English version of DGCR-ese. It's often easier for me to show more and say less in person, so I did. He watched and listened, then he talked about something he heard from a Stokely video ("leading with the elbow") vs. something I phrased from SW22 and related content about arm mechanics ("swinging with the shoulder/body and the arm resisting collapse"). He interpreted that they were saying different things, which made me realize I should ask him a couple questions.

So I then asked him to show me his interpretation of the Stokely advance, which was a chicken wing with a collapsed shoulder/hugging himself. His interpretation of the "swinging wide and resisting collapse" is essentially a rigid stiff arm with no elbow bend. I shared the golf-like swing analogy with smoother tension and noted how this was part of what links the Stokely advice or other swing concepts. I attempted to show him how they were fundamentally the same advice but were emphasizing different aspects of the mechanics/kinetic chain. His conclusion appeared to be that he should "take everything with a grain of salt." I might have gotten the "closed shoulder/shoulder lead" part across, but I'm not sure.

I'm hopeful that part of his response was just that he was especially frustrated and a bit hurt, and I'm sure I could have communicated better. I know in the end it's up to him, but I can't help but feel a little responsibility since he seems to look to me for input. I'm just hopeful he's ok but I'm worried that he's just going to start getting himself hurt more often now that he's tasted some distance nectar and might tend to get ahead of himself.

Form advice, videos, expert input and technique are not the end all, be all. Some people are more coordinated, better athletes and have superior athletic genes. They can find distance within bad form. Improvement should be a balance between what works for you and techique improvement. IMO, of course.

 

[timothy42b]

I had an interesting/upsetting interaction with a friend yesterday who had recently put on a reliable ~75' of easy power just from picking up a few tips I've relayed from here. I've been universally encouraging and only relay ideas when he's interested. In the past 3-4 weeks however, he was frustrated that everything was suddenly coming out anhyzer despite his best efforts to fix it.

It's hard to fix an fault in real time, partly because the root cause is often elsewhere.

I have the same problem with inadvertent anny angle and video shows my shoulder plane changing during the swing (like in Trebuchet's tilt video). But saying don't do that doesn't help, if the reason I do that is buried somewhere up the chain of sequential actions - the apparent fault is often the symptom of the root cause.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_whys

I suspect when something falls apart on the course, the best way out may be to just change to a different style. Go to forehand or wide rail or something quite different until you have time to review the tape maybe. Rollers are your friend!

I've been to a clinic with Stokely and watched many many of his videos. I sometimes have trouble reconciling what he says to do with what he does or wants me to do.

 

[Sheep]

It's hard to fix an fault in real time, partly because the root cause is often elsewhere.

I have the same problem with inadvertent anny angle and video shows my shoulder plane changing during the swing (like in Trebuchet's tilt video). But saying don't do that doesn't help, if the reason I do that is buried somewhere up the chain of sequential actions - the apparent fault is often the symptom of the root cause.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_whys

I suspect when something falls apart on the course, the best way out may be to just change to a different style. Go to forehand or wide rail or something quite different until you have time to review the tape maybe. Rollers are your friend!

I've been to a clinic with Stokely and watched many many of his videos. I sometimes have trouble reconciling what he says to do with what he does or wants me to do.

I believe that sometimes its not necessarily a fault of a bad chain, but more of bad programming.

A bug in the code. and error. Which causes a crash. The chain is good, but the instructions are bad. The language to drive the body. Our body is capable of some really really really crazy things that make 0 sense. Which is why this stuff is such a struggle.
We are trying to have so much control over so many things, that one bad instruction in the chain can cause us to detour mid swing.

This is another example of why language is so important. Because its the way we program ourselves and each other. So good instructions lead to better performance.

I've seen people setup beautiful swings and get all the way to the power pocket and do some of the dumbest things after that, because they watched some video that says they need to do this or that.
Or... the double move stupidity, or whatever else.

The body then mid swing shifts to a completely different swing. because of bad programing.

Sometimes its muscle memory.
But I think muscle memory is a lot easier to break than we think. And mostly has to do with some really dumb stuff like this. Where essentially your swapping floppy discs mid throw and your body just corrects itself into what you're actually telling it because you start thinking about something else.



As for Stokley, stokley does it the "do it my way" method of teaching.
You get sent on a structured program to do it the "stokley way"

While a lot of other coaches will be more apt to teach the best way to get the results.
Thats the way i teach anyways.

 

[Rumpled]

My brace was incorrect when throwing backhand. My plant foot was too flat to the ground when throwing and was putting excessive stress on my knee. I noticed when watching slow mo videos of Corey Ellis that when his disc was in the power pocket that his toes were lifting off the ground; he was balanced and spinning on his heel when throwing. This allows him to rotate his hips without any resistance from his lower body. I have adopted this and I am now throwing without discomfort. Due to changing my balance point, my center of gravity is more centered rather than too far forward and my posture is better. This may seem obvious to others, but the word brace and looking at too many still shots had led me to the wrong conclusion.

 

[HyzerRoc]

I worked on my weight shift, mainly with the buttwipe drill, and it has resolved some reoccuring knee pain. I would get about 50 drives a day but after that the inside of my right knee would hurt and I couldnt play the next day. With a more pronounced weight shift it has gotten noticeably better, but there is still some knee pain to be had. Not sure if I also use my foot differently like Rumpled alluded to.

 

[Brychanus]

When I stopped obsessively throwing every day, everything hurt less.

When I stopped tilting/tipping as much and landing too much into my quads and knees, my knees, elbow, and shoulder hurt less.

When I shifted the load to "ride the bull" better it made it clear that years of neglecting that "posterior chain" and office life were a mistake and I have lots of catching up to do!