When is Par 3 no longer realistic?

[Stud Muffin]

At the Potosi course I play often, there is a 650' par 3. It is downhill, but it is OB completely down the right side, and traditionally always facing a head wind. This means most flex shots end up OB.

Even with a good Flex shot, I still am still 300-250' out. This again, is traditionally facing a head wind, and OB down the right line. Is this a realistic distance to be making an 'approach' shot? There are Par 3's not as long as this approach shot on this course.

I do not throw far by this forum's standards. Some days better than others, but 300-330 range. Still, with the people I play DG with, I look like a mad bomber compared to them. There is no way they are making three unless they put it in 200' away.

I look at it like this, some people are very accurate, and can birdie technical holes with ease. Some people can throw really long too. If they can birdie long par 4's with ease, then they can do it, that still should be no reason to call a par 4 on a legitimate par 4 a bogey.

It just doesn't seem fair.
And, for the record, I have never made a 3 on the hole. It is an awesome challenge, and I do not beat myself up over making a 4, just hate that the scorecard does.

 

[DirtyMittenDG]

Just depends who your playing with...

 

[optidiscic]

How much of an elevation drop is it? It sounds wide open if you can huck a flex out there. Sounds like a weak 4 to me....so they kept it at 3

 

[Connor Jones]

Its still all going to a total at the end,so it doesn't really matter,call it a par 20 if that makes you feel better.

 

[skybird]

We have a par three that sounds just like the one you describe except it is 950'. Some holes you just take a 4 and walk away happy... Par ratings are just reference points, really. Around here everything is par 3, while somewhere else the same hole would be a 4 or 5. Its the same for everyone so what's in a number?

 

[Three Putt]

Par is whatever I say it is. I've got one hole that's a par 23 and yesterday I damn near birdied the sucker. - Willie Nelson.

 

[Stud Muffin]

How much of an elevation drop is it? It sounds wide open if you can huck a flex out there. Sounds like a weak 4 to me....so they kept it at 3

It is uphill for 200', then it drops, I can not give a exact number or idea on that. It is completely wide open, but that does not make it easy. The fence to the right, OB, runs all the way down, and the basket is 40-50' from the fence. With the land being treeless here, massive wind gusts even on calmer days, and always in your face, coming a little left to right. I have thrown Wraiths on a hyzer that flipped up and over the fence. If you ever go there, there is a Huddle House across the road, which is over the fence... I have put discs in that parking lot with flex shots.

So the only safe bet is throwing a OS disc down center, and ending far left of the line. I have trouble getting much distance on that. Do not let it fool you, it is difficult to get a 4, much less a 3.

 

[jenb]

When is a par 3 unrealistic? How about on that 228 foot hole number 4 you should park with your putter? For every one of those on a course, there should be a hole like the one you described, just to even things out.So keep in mind that sometimes a hole that "should" be a par 4 is assigned a par 3 to even things out, because you can't assign a par 2 to the holes that deserve them.

 

[optidiscic]

Potosi has 4 par 4s...so this is not an everything is a par 3 argument...I'd guess its closer to a 3 than a 4 and thus they call it a 3.

 

[DirtyMittenDG]

When is a par 3 unrealistic? How about on that 228 foot hole number 4 you should park with your putter? For every one of those on a course, there should be a hole like the one you described, just to even things out.So keep in mind that sometimes a hole that "should" be a par 4 is assigned a par 3 to even things out, because you can't assign a par 2 to the holes that deserve them.

No hole deserves a par 2. An ace shouldn't ever be a single birdie. And I don't like that "make up par" philosophy. lol

 

[sansho]

I had a similar discussion with a couple of locals about our long holes who play in local tourneys but not tons of sanctioned stuff.
We have a few holes that are definitely 4's in a sanctioned tourney but everyone always plays them as 3s whether it's playing casual round or local doubles tourneys.
Like it was said above I guess it's really just a reference point and you're always playing towards a total score anyway.

But "shooting par" does obviously have its psychological advantages.

 

[Stud Muffin]

When is a par 3 unrealistic? How about on that 228 foot hole number 4 you should park with your putter? For every one of those on a course, there should be a hole like the one you described, just to even things out.So keep in mind that sometimes a hole that "should" be a par 4 is assigned a par 3 to even things out, because you can't assign a par 2 to the holes that deserve them.

The 228' does get birdied, but not every time. There is a tree that plays Shaun Bradley with discs.

...but I have never made a 3 on number 6.

 

[jenb]

IDK. I guess being 18+ over par on the average course for the past 6 years has jaded me to the whole par issue. I routinely assign personal pars to holes, and feel overjoyed to get 4s on holes that no one would think ought to be par 4s. I'm sure there are men over 40 or 50 who have to deal with the same or similar issue.

 

[elpool009]

how's about for all them times you score a 5...every effing time...til you hit that one open pocket on your drive and you bang that 25-45 footer for a deuce...the s h i t

 

[Stud Muffin]

IDK. I guess being 18+ over par on the average course for the past 6 years has jaded me to the whole par issue. I routinely assign personal pars to holes, and feel overjoyed to get 4s on holes that no one would think ought to be par 4s. I'm sure there are men over 40 or 50 who have to deal with the same or similar issue.

That is sort of what I am getting at.

There should be a universal number for drive length. A realistic number. If you took the average drive of every PDGA member, and averaged them all out, NOT just the open players, and used that number.

Then use elevation and average wind to make things as precise as possible. Also factor in risk/reward.

Then establish what is a 'expected 2' area? 100', 125'? Whatever it would be, use it universally across all DG courses.

Then par would no longer be an opinion, but a decision of math. If the average drive length is outside of the expected 2 zone, then it is a par 4. If the average length of 2 drives is still outside of the expected 2 zone, then call it a 5.

 

[ReinZ_96]

I think for an average player who can drive around 300-320 with accuracy the max for a par 3 should be around 450ish on a flat mostly open hole..wide open hole closer to 500-525ft. Moderately wooded holes prob around 375-400 and heavily wooded hole prob around 320-340. But every hole is different. I just set my own pars for every course I play, that hole you talk of tho should really be a 4, the only people I could see having a legitate chance at par on regular basis is someone who can consistently drive 500ft.

Edit: and there is a thing on the PDGA site that gives par guidelines by distance and foliage density for different levels of players.

 

[DirtyMittenDG]

....Then par would no longer be an opinion, but a decision of math...

Thats how it SHOULD be!

 

[Stud Muffin]

I think for an average player who can drive around 300-320 with accuracy the max for a par 3 should be around 450ish on a flat mostly open hole..wide open hole closer to 500-525ft. Moderately wooded holes prob around 375-400 and heavily wooded hole prob around 320-340. But every hole is different. I just set my own pars for every course I play, that hole you talk of tho should really be a 4, the only people I could see having a legitate chance at par on regular basis is someone who can consistently drive 500ft.

Edit: and there is a thing on the PDGA site that gives par guidelines by distance and foliage density for different levels of players.

Exactly.

And if someone has the talent and ability to do that, they should call their 3 a birdie. Instead of it being a 'common par', while every normal human being is 'below common'.

 

[Stud Muffin]

Thats how it SHOULD be!

:thmbup:

 

[optidiscic]

Thats how it SHOULD be!

there are far too many variables to realistically make a formula for what par should be....it's far easier/practical to think of par in more subjective terms. The hole in question is probably a 3.4 or 3.5 and its given a 3. This kind of hole actually is exactly what I'm talking about in this thread.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47140