Where to pull through?

[KniceZ]

Been watching some slow motion videos of the pros and noticed a lot of variation in where they pull across their body. Some seem to pull straight across the chest. Which is what it seems that Master Beto demonstrates in his videos. But most seem to pull from much lower then across at or even below the waist line and finish with a follow through at chest/sholder height.

Which is better and why? And if lower is better - how do you keep from skying it or releasing with a lot of hyzer?

 

[sidewinder22]

Beto typically pulls low to high in a full swing like most do, the drill is just the last part of the throw. The variation you see is most often due to the spine tilt, or amount of turn. If you are more upright the swing will be more level. You want to throw upward with the nose down at the apex of it's flight so it can fly out from there. The more snap you have the easier it is to keep the nose down and adjust angles.

 

[KniceZ]

I did notice that the spine or upper body was usually tilted away from the basket. Combine that with the low to high pull and I don't understand how they keep the disc from going in an upward trajectory, staling and fading hard. Thats what happens to me any time i'm not standing upright or just a little forward. Are they compensating with a lot downward wrist tilt so the disc as actually tilted downward rather than in-line with the forearm.

Do you have some diagrams of how these angles are put together?

 

[jmackie]

Let me know when you figure it out because I can't do it! I think it has something to do with the snap and hyzer flip which is still missing from my game.

 

[BobbyCorn]

I caught on to this a few months ago as well from watching better local players and then watching videos of pros throw. I started pulling lower to higher and saw instant results in ease of the throw, distance and accuracy. I feel that throwing like this forces you to use your core and legs more and takes the 'arm strength' out from the main focus on your pull. Driving was easier initially compared to approach shots with mids and putters but I got it after a week or two.

As far as release and nose angle, it naturally gets back to flat at the end of the throw and you don't really alter your normal release, at least I didn't. Unfortunately, a few weeks after switching my throwing form, I tore my meniscus and strained my ACL and have not played much in two and a half months. I'm really anxious to get back out there and get back into that throwing motion.

I watched a video of Feldberg, Niko and Will, you can see how easy they throw on hole 3 and take that motion to other shots in the round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpSAjVtzo0A

 

[BobbyCorn]

That's a good vid but mostly Niko, there is a competitive round showing them all throw, can't find it though. Here it is.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKyAuvnJscs

 

[jmackie]

This Feldberg vid demonstrates no snap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me6fRdCt2VE

vs

This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGGYsSUGKXk

So again now I'm confused because these contradict each other!

 

[BobbyCorn]

Both are good videos but what helps me is the disconnect between a pros 'hit' and then 'audio snap.'

Both videos talk about the same thing being the 'hit' point of release. You can see Feldberg talk about 'hit' in putting as well or when Climo says 'paint the pole' that's the release of the disc. The release of the wrist outward at the end of the throw or putt.

Snap is just an audio snap caused by grip strength and friction on release. I get a lot of audio 'snap' on mids and fw drivers but not so much on distance drivers. I don't think 'snap' makes it a good throw, but 'hit' at the end is what makes it a good throw.

Follow me?

 

[KniceZ]

I've watched all these videos and more. But all they ever seem to say is keep the disc in line with forearm. Yet when I do that and pull from waist to chest level the disc comes out nose up. I can't seem to just watch someone else throw and catch all the little details required to make this work. No disrespect intended sidewinder, but I have even more trouble translating golf swing videos to disc golf.

Anybody on here near the fredericksburg va area and willing to give a private lesson?

 

[Kodachrome]

pull somewhere through your chest/ribcage/core area. go through your throw and pull where ever your arm feels most comfortable starting/finishing, but make sure your elbow is driving forward. that's probably where most of your power will be - not in the elbow, but what i mean to say is that where you are comfortable is where you motion will be most fluid and natural, therefore powerful. start where ever feels best; it'll probably be somewhere around the same area.

you really don't have to start that low to throw a decent distance or accurately. extrapolate your line when you throw. you don't have to aim high to throw 15-20 feet off the ground. i throw 450' on a *perfect* pull - obviously not a cannon - but that's not how i pull and i rarely feel like i'm missing out on distance.

i think we're putting the wagon in front of the horse, though. if you can post a video you will get a lot more meaningful feedback instead of idle speculation about how you MIGHT be throwing - since posting videos of the pros or ourselves won't help you, you should post one. it'll be just like getting a short lesson.

 

[sidewinder22]

Nose down is relative to the trajectory and changes throughout the flight(how the air going over/under the disc affects it), not the ground or your wrist/forearm. Keeping the disc aligned to the forearm is for maximum power transfer and consistency, so the disc pivots on the same plane as the arm. Trying to force the wrist down to far/angling the disc further down, and is often counterproductive. Adjusting the disc orientation in the grip/hand is far more useful, and comfortable. Throwing nose down with a level swing is called a worm burner.

Try contacting Erik Smith or Ian Lidell(http://www.dgcoursereview.com/profile.php?id=23422) via facebook.

 

[teemkey]

The wide-stance bent at the waist athletic position of the body when pulling becomes a tall, rather straight up position during the follow through. You may be seeing more low-to-high due to body position than actually occurs from the pull point to release.

It would be interesting to see Sidewinder (or someone else) do a frame-by-frame break down from pull to hit that shows the relationship of the disc's plane (or apparent plane) to the thrower's core.

 

[sidewinder22]

There's so many variables on the type of shot and personal reach back style, I don't think it's worth analyzing in much depth. The arm just swings under the shoulder. If we are talking about any shot with distance, it's always low to high because that's the trajectory and how the shoulder moves.

 

[KniceZ]

I know I'm basically strong arming since I'm stuck at about 310-325 on a great throw. Does getting more core power involved help/cause the disc to stay nose down when pulling "low to high"?

Adjusting the disc orientation in the grip/hand is far more useful, and comfortable.

I've started to wonder if I need to rethink my grip. I'll try to get some grip pics and throwing video put together.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yep. Most players struggling for distance only throw with an outside in pull. Most long throwers pull inside out. As for grip, yes play around with your grip, it's taken me years to find something I'm comfortable with.

 

[KniceZ]

According to this video I may be holding the disc too deep into my hand. My first finger puts pressure on the pad right behind the first knuckle but my third and fourth finger push the disc into the crease that curves toward the wrist.

 

[Shamis]

Where you pull through depends on the stability of the disc. For understable hyzer-flipping I have to pull through closer to my waist, but for stable/over stable it's closer to my nipples.

 

[BobbyCorn]

Where you pull through depends on the stability of the disc. For understable hyzer-flipping I have to pull through closer to my waist, but for stable/over stable it's closer to my nipples.

Hyzer flip is the angle of the release, you can pull through anywhere. Not sure why pulling across your nipples makes a more stable disc a better throw.

 

[Questatement]

I've watched all these videos and more. But all they ever seem to say is keep the disc in line with forearm. Yet when I do that and pull from waist to chest level the disc comes out nose up.

Nose angle is largely dependent on grip. If you grip the disc in a way that forces your wrist over to the outside of your body, you won't be able to turn the nose back up unless you alter your grip to allow the wrist to roll back to the inside of your body.

Try placing the disc vertical in your open palm in a straight line with your forearm then using your fingers to wrap around the disc while moving your hand and wrist as little as possible. That should roll your wrist over to force the nose down, even if you pull your arm from low to high upon release.

 

[tcblank]

For distance, I find that grip isn't that huge of a thing. I've hit roughly the same distance with all the various power grips and even fan grips. I just get a nice grip, without it being way to hard or too soft that is comfortable. Manipulating your grip for a "little" more distance is good for those trying to get 510' over 505'. Not something everyone is going to screw around with.

If you are looking to go from 250' to 400' difference in driving power... grip ain't going to get you there. Body form and release. It's about coiling up your core power right, and unwinding it to impart as much centrifugal force into the smoothest released disc you can do.

If you watch slow pitch softball swing mechanics, it will help understand this as well. In slow pitch softball, the majority of the power generated to impart distance on the ball is done by the batter. Since the ball isn't moving very fast, it doesn't have much energy to rebound off the bat. Since a softball batter has limited lateral movement in the batters box, although there is some allowed walk up, the majority of force generated during a swing is from coiling the body and unwinding it. Same thing with disc golf. The more you can get your body to turn, the more energy you'll impart on a disc when it is released. The problem is, we can't all be doing 360 spins in place. It will ruin accuracy as well as probably make you faint from screwing up the inner ear. So both softball, baseball, and disc golf use a similar mechanic in turn the body backwards around a pivot leg and reach back with the arms. Then an uncoiling happens with the lower body first, as there is more mass involved. The spine splits into two segments where the leading leg steps forward and starts the spinning motion of the body in that direction. To prevent loss of energy during the spin the idea is to keep the body as compact as possible and to have the piece you want with the most energy the last piece to spin outwards. With baseball/softball that would be the bat head. With disc golf it is the disc in your hand. You do this by placing that part the farthest back away from your body. Then when bringing it into the spin, do so at the most compact place possible which is the center of your core.

Learning how to properly twist your body into alignment for the reach back of the disc, then how to properly uncoil your body from the bottom up starting with your step in leading leg, and then bringing your arm as close to your body through the spin to have it fly out at the end is what is going to get you the most distance gains in learning how to throw properly.

Some people argue a bit on exact release angle, the exact area you should pull through, and a few other nuances like the grip. Those are what I call fine tuning adjustments. Getting down the basic mechanic is going to get the most distance out of your throw.