2018 Waco Annual Charity Open DGPT

[brutalbrutus]

What hole/round was it? (link to the video would be even better)

If it is as you describe, you are correct. You only use the mando as the "target" to determine line of play if the line from the basket to your marker passes on the incorrect side of the mando.

Was lining up at 3 o'clock advantageous to Jerm or did he simply misunderstand/misapply the rule?

1:58:30 mark...

 

[Batmanx2008]

Great job on the Smashcutts Johnny V!

I really love being able to watch these incase I am able to catch the live round (like I did saturday) and I wont be behind. I loved watching saturdays round.

And I can relate to Big Jerm and the missed 10ft putts, sometimes your just in auto mode and slightly mess up. Its recovering from it that matters and Big Jerm did that well.

 

[brutalbrutus]

Great job on the Smashcutts Johnny V!

I really love being able to watch these incase I am able to catch the live round (like I did saturday) and I wont be behind. I loved watching saturdays round.

And I can relate to Big Jerm and the missed 10ft putts, sometimes your just in auto mode and slightly mess up. Its recovering from it that matters and Big Jerm did that well.

Same kind of thing happened last year. He missed 2 or 3 short putts as Conrad was making his surge. Then got on a birdie/eagle train...

 

[JC17393]

Thanks brutalbrutus for the link. Yeah, that's pretty egregious. I see what Lyle is saying, but he's not even within the "box" as it should have been determined (line of play from the basket).

Based on Jerm's pointing, I drew an "M" roughly where the mando is. The arrow points roughly where the target is. He was 100% wrong to use the mando to determine line of play in this situation. And by doing that, his foot was not on the legal lie when he released.

Obviously, he did it to get clearance from the tree for his throw. I don't think he intentionally cheated to do it. I think he was genuinely applying what he thought was correct but he had the rule wrong. So less a matter of him trying to skirt the rules and more a matter of more pros who doesn't know the rules well enough.

 

[notroman]

Thanks brutalbrutus for the link. Yeah, that's pretty egregious. I see what Lyle is saying, but he's not even within the "box" as it should have been determined (line of play from the basket).

Based on Jerm's pointing, I drew an "M" roughly where the mando is. The arrow points roughly where the target is. He was 100% wrong to use the mando to determine line of play in this situation. And by doing that, his foot was not on the legal lie when he released.

Obviously, he did it to get clearance from the tree for his throw. I don't think he intentionally cheated to do it. I think he was genuinely applying what he thought was correct but he had the rule wrong. So less a matter of him trying to skirt the rules and more a matter of more pros who doesn't know the rules well enough.

Huh? If according to what you drew he hasn't passed the mando tree yet, then his line of play is to the mando, not to the target. His stance looks correct.

 

[brutalbrutus]

804.02

The nearest mandatory whose mandatory line is crossed by the line between the lie and the target is considered to be the target for all rules related to marking the lie, stance, obstacles, and relief, with one exception: 806.01 Putting Area.

This is worded rather poorly to me but if I am reading it correctly, it says if you are on the correct side of the mando, and have a clear line of sight to the basket, then the line of play is the basket. Therefore, imo, the only time when you make your stance in relation to the mando, is when you are short of it and on the wrong side...?

 

[JC17393]

Huh? If according to what you drew he hasn't passed the mando tree yet, then his line of play is to the mando, not to the target. His stance looks correct.

Only if the line from the basket to the marker passes on the incorrect side of the mando. In this case, it does not so the mando is irrelevant from a lie/stance perspective. His stance is wrong because he misunderstands the rule.

 

[brutalbrutus]

Only if the line from the basket to the marker passes on the incorrect side of the mando. In this case, it does not so the mando is irrelevant from a lie/stance perspective. His stance is wrong because he misunderstands the rule.

This is where I think a small diagram should be included in the rule book. People understand pictures easier than legalspeak...

 

[notroman]

Only if the line from the basket to the marker passes on the incorrect side of the mando. In this case, it does not so the mando is irrelevant from a lie/stance perspective. His stance is wrong because he misunderstands the rule.

Ah, good point.

 

[JC17393]

This is where I think a small diagram should be included in the rule book. People understand pictures easier than legalspeak...

Something like this, only not so crude (I drew it in five minutes).

 

[Steve West]

...So less a matter of him trying to skirt the rules and more a matter of more pros who doesn't know the rules well enough.

Apparently, all four did not know it.

 

[XC_Eddy]

This is where I think a small diagram should be included in the rule book. People understand pictures easier than legalspeak...

No joke. The wording is technically correct, but takes reading through it 2 or 3 times for it to make any sense. I can completely understand how a player would misunderstand that rule.

Between Jerm misunderstanding the mando/line of play rule and Ricky not realizing he could second a foot fault call on himself it is clear that the rules are complicated and difficult to understand. Not even the people who do this for a living fully understand the rules. How in the heck am I supposed to expect random intermediate Joe at a C tier to understand them?

 

[robdeforge]

The other thing that rubbed me wrong about his game was how he threw in a joke comment about Nate's score right after Perkins was announced at the playoff before teeing off. They might be buddies who wouldn't care about a good humored jab, but before a shot with that kind of cash on the line I'd think staying quiet would be the most respectful way to go.

what was the comment? (out of curiosity)

No joke. The wording is technically correct, but takes reading through it 2 or 3 times for it to make any sense. I can completely understand how a player would misunderstand that rule.

Between Jerm misunderstanding the mando/line of play rule and Ricky not realizing he could second a foot fault call on himself it is clear that the rules are complicated and difficult to understand. Not even the people who do this for a living fully understand the rules. How in the heck am I supposed to expect random intermediate Joe at a C tier to understand them?

completely disagree - I understood that rule as an AM2 player, playing on courses that have no mandos whatsoever.

 

[XC_Eddy]

Oh, and because I don't love turning every tournament discussion into a rules discussion:

Garrett Gurthie throwing 550+ bombs and giving himself Eagle looks was amazing. So awesome to see him playing at a high level again. So glad to get to see him rip long drives on a filmed card.

Shoutout to Nate Perkins for coming in second. He was in the hunt a couple times last year, and it'd be great to see even more of that from him. More parity = more fun to watch.

Paul switched on Mcbeast Mode there in round 2, but couldn't even sustain it for a full round. -10 through 9 holes is disgusting. Only finishing a round that began that hot as humanly possible at -12 is disappointing. Paul still has the hottest hot streaks in disc golf, but his consistency has shown need for improvement for the last couple of years.

Congrats to Jerm. He is one of the best woods golfers in the world and proved it again this weekend.

I loved watching coverage of a good wooded course again. LVC and the Memorial are fun just because they get to start the season and we haven't had coverage of a major event for several months, but my goodness, does Brazos East blow them out of the water in course quality.

 

[JC17393]

No joke. The wording is technically correct, but takes reading through it 2 or 3 times for it to make any sense. I can completely understand how a player would misunderstand that rule.

Between Jerm misunderstanding the mando/line of play rule and Ricky not realizing he could second a foot fault call on himself it is clear that the rules are complicated and difficult to understand. Not even the people who do this for a living fully understand the rules. How in the heck am I supposed to expect random intermediate Joe at a C tier to understand them?

The rules aren't complicated. They really aren't.

Players don't read the rule book. That's the problem. By and large, they learn the rules by word of mouth. So when one person misquotes or misinterprets a rule, anyone who hears them and believes them now has an incorrect understanding of a rule. And then they pass on that incorrect knowledge themselves like a game of telephone.

I'd bet anything that Ricky didn't read the new rules when the book came out. He learned about them through conversations about them (or maybe he read the summary of changes), and perhaps the change (back) to allowing players to call or second a stance violation on themselves wasn't included in the conversations (it isn't specifically mentioned in the summary).

Slightly different story with Jerm. That isn't a new rule. That's the way the stance/lie rules have worked with regard to mandos forever. His is probably a textbook case of learning the rules orally rather than reading the book. Someone once upon a time in some other round marked/determined their lie based on the position of the mando (perhaps correctly) and that stuck in Jerm's head without the important distinction about the location of the mando relative to the line of play from marker to basket.

No question some rules could be written with clearer language. But that is not the crux of the problem with players not understanding or correctly applying the rules. It goes a lot deeper than the wording.

 

[Steve West]

No joke. The wording is technically correct, but takes reading through it 2 or 3 times for it to make any sense. I can completely understand how a player would misunderstand that rule.

Between Jerm misunderstanding the mando/line of play rule and Ricky not realizing he could second a foot fault call on himself it is clear that the rules are complicated and difficult to understand. Not even the people who do this for a living fully understand the rules. How in the heck am I supposed to expect random intermediate Joe at a C tier to understand them?

In Ricky's case, the rule was more complicated before this year; last year's rule is what made it hard for Ricky to know he could second the call. (By the way, he said he wouldn't have anyway, even if he had known he could.) In the 2013 rules, there was a specific instance where a player could not make a call or second on themself. That confused people, so it was removed.

Now, it's much simpler: you can call or second any violation on yourself. Is that too hard for Joe to understand?

I'll grant that the Mando LOP rule is hard, but that doesn't mean we should throw up our hands and claim that all rules can be ignored because the rule book had exceeded a tolerable level of simplicity.

 

[pearlybakerbest]

what was the comment? (out of curiosity)



completely disagree - I understood that rule as an AM2 player, playing on courses that have no mandos whatsoever.

Something about his score the previous round I think. He was obviously kidding around, just not the appropriate timing the second before your opponent tees IMO.

 

[XC_Eddy]

In Ricky's case, the rule was more complicated before this year; last year's rule is what made it hard for Ricky to know he could second the call. (By the way, he said he wouldn't have anyway, even if he had known he could.) In the 2013 rules, there was a specific instance where a player could not make a call or second on themself. That confused people, so it was removed.

Now, it's much simpler: you can call or second any violation on yourself. Is that too hard for Joe to understand?

I'll grant that the Mando LOP rule is hard, but that doesn't mean we should throw up our hands and claim that all rules can be ignored because the rule book had exceeded a tolerable level of simplicity.

That's fair, we should just throw up our hands and ignore the rules because they are a little complicated. However, we clearly have rules misconceptions even at the highest level of the sport. Players learning every rule correctly is an ongoing process that is going to take a while. I'm happy to help intermediate Joe understand the detailed rules. I also know that there is a good chance that there is at least one detailed rule that he either read incorrectly or was taught incorrectly by someone else. Rules changing over time adds to that.

Players need to gently correct one another until we all get it right. That hasn't even happened fully at the Pro level yet. It'll be years until that culture fully develops among the AMs. We've got a lot of work to do in getting most players to a correct understanding of nuanced rules. Keep the rules nuanced, keep enforcing them correctly when possible, but have some grace with the knowledge that players at every level are still learning the rule book.

 

[InDaWoodsDiscN419]

The spectator didn't do anything to affect the outcome of the disc, Nate threw it into a crowd of people 30' on the other side of the OB line. No one's fault but the player who threw the shot.

No, the spectator didn't actually interfere, but if they had not been there the disc Nate threw

had a good chance to enter back in-bounds. Same as when the disc hit the water bottle, it

stopped momentum, but it also could have possibly continued in-bounds. All I was saying was

that if no spectators were hit the disc might have carried back fairly. $hite way for play-off

to be decided, not by actual play. True the throw was errant. Weird how similar situation

was to last years events.

 

[InDaWoodsDiscN419]

Nice...

Oh, and because I don't love turning every tournament discussion into a rules discussion:

Garrett Gurthie throwing 550+ bombs and giving himself Eagle looks was amazing. So awesome to see him playing at a high level again. So glad to get to see him rip long drives on a filmed card.

Shoutout to Nate Perkins for coming in second. He was in the hunt a couple times last year, and it'd be great to see even more of that from him. More parity = more fun to watch.

Paul switched on Mcbeast Mode there in round 2, but couldn't even sustain it for a full round. -10 through 9 holes is disgusting. Only finishing a round that began that hot as humanly possible at -12 is disappointing. Paul still has the hottest hot streaks in disc golf, but his consistency has shown need for improvement for the last couple of years.

Congrats to Jerm. He is one of the best woods golfers in the world and proved it again this weekend.

I loved watching coverage of a good wooded course again. LVC and the Memorial are fun just because they get to start the season and we haven't had coverage of a major event for several months, but my goodness, does Brazos East blow them out of the water in course quality.

Excellent summary, expressed perfectly my thoughts about this killer tourney!