Roc vs. Buzzz, to end all wars

[jmhoekst]

I don't get this comparison at all. Isn't this like comparing a TeeBird and a Leopard, or some other comparison where the discs aren't similar at all?

Seems silly.

Or maybe thats the two shots of Crown talkin

^^This. A more accurate comparison would be "Roc or Wasp?". Innova refused to make the Roc in Champ plastic back in the day, so Discraft made the Z Wasp and sold a ton of them. I heard this story second-hand so not 100% sure of the historical accuracy. Makes sense to me, though. BTW, I throw the Buzzz...and the Wasp.

 

[Phil_Ludvik]

I started throwing a buzzz, then tried dx rocs for about 6 months due to the talk I had heard of them.

I went back to the buzzz...I wanted something that flew in premium plastic because I didnt like how much the dx rocs flight could change after a big tree hit.

when it comes to tight tunnel shots, I always reach for a mid-range, and dx wasnt making the cut.

 

[smyith]

Most discs that are of any age have some type of 1st run, 2nd run, star stamp, bar stamp, tramp stamp, named-after-some-pro's-worlds-victory (x12!), etc. versioning. There's no getting away from that, and Buzzz's are no exception.

Rocs have some of that PLUS the different molds. FWIW, last store I was in had labeled San Marino rocs and some rocs that had no label and no inside tooling that I could find. If you buy a current run ESP or Z Buzzz, you know exactly what you're getting.

I conjecture that a lot of the 1st run/tramp stamp differentiation is self-pleasuring in nature. However, I haven't played with enough versions of the same disc to assert it as a fact.

every innova disc has a patent # and Location of the molding. it is incredibly easy to know which Roc you're looking at. hot stamps are meaningless in standard runs. why? some stamps are used for several years and multiple runs.
your lack of knowledge and your parading of your opinion only show your iggnorance. instead of taking offense to what i said, think about looking through the various threads and educate yourself more.

 

[slimshadyemb]

I'm a noob, but I feel like the hornet is a lot more like a roc than a wasp is. But I don't throw a wasp. Or a roc

How about this one

The buzz is better, because mine is bright ass yellow. That's why mine is better than a lame roc

What the hell is a roc anyway? People have died from buzzz/bee stings. What's the worst a "roc" has ever done? Been thrown as jesus? It's just stupid, that's why they call it getting "stoned" Just dumb

 

[Triflusal]

I guess bees are cooler than legendary birds of prey

 

[cfair]

I'm a noob, but I feel like the hornet is a lot more like a roc than a wasp is. But I don't throw a wasp. Or a roc

How about this one

The buzz is better, because mine is bright ass yellow. That's why mine is better than a lame roc

What the hell is a roc anyway? People have died from buzzz/bee stings. What's the worst a "roc" has ever done? Been thrown as jesus? It's just stupid, that's why they call it getting "stoned" Just dumb

Rocs were characterized as white giant birds that would tear elephants from the plains of Africa, wreck ships (including sinbad's), and be general pains in the ass...

yeah, people have died from bees. Tell you what, when they make a book of manly ways to die I'm sure bee stings will be right up there...

if everyone posted with your kind of juvenile insight then we would have a lot more reasons for everyone to be using Katana's and Nuke's...

noob cannon.

 

[DeadEye]

I have a friend that I started playing with recently who throws rocs primarily, and changed my opinion on mid ranges. He brought out a flat top roc, and I realized how much like a buzz a flat top roc is.

 

[Eefman]

like I said, the best rocs are 7$

and people are paying $bank$ for theose first run buzzzes, which is basically just a Z buzzz

True

My favorite Roc was a flattop DX Rancho. Last time I lost it, had to spend 30 minutes searching through a bamboo patch with my dog. Totally worth it though.

And to people that pay premium prices for premium plastic...

..Fools. My flat-top stock-stamp Z Buzzz is just as tasty as your first runs (or2fr's... )

 

[Hegemony]

every innova disc has a patent # and Location of the molding. it is incredibly easy to know which Roc you're looking at. hot stamps are meaningless in standard runs. why? some stamps are used for several years and multiple runs.
your lack of knowledge and your parading of your opinion only show your iggnorance. instead of taking offense to what i said, think about looking through the various threads and educate yourself more.

First,

I'm an ignorant wretch. You got me You win one internetz for figuring out I was ignorant and having the guts to say to when no one else did. I hope your level of smugness is satisfying. Really... I do.

Second,

You didn't respond to me. Unless you're posting under multiple alts or a mod deleted your post (that ironically I never saw,) I can't see how you got the impression that I took offense to anything you said.

Thirdly,

The only thing I've said, wrapped in a plethora of hyperbole, was that most discs with any history (including the buzzz) have have multiple series runs offering variations in feel and flight characteristics. Rocs have that 3 major series molds adding to the number of combinations offered for that single "disc" (flat tops, CFR, classic, etc.) Is this not the case?


Warning: The below is a parade of my opinion. I'm really ignorant, so you probably shouldn't read it (the marching band isn't that good.)

Because of the above, I'm not a fan.

It's been said multiple times on the forums (and even in this thread) that 1st run buzzz's that people are paying large prices for are extremely close to current run Z buzzz's. What I take from that is that I'm not missing much by buying what's available off the shelf. It's got nothing to do with replacement costs in my mind and everything to do with replacement availability. I also tend toward Champ/Z/Opto plastic, and as Triflusal so eloquently put Champ rocs are pricey.

Yeah, I went to a store one time asking about Rancho rocs to try one. The guy wasn't sure, and I wasn't overly eager to buy. The disc most likely had a stamp. I just didn't look that hard.

 

[jtbingster]

First,

I'm an ignorant wretch. You got me You win one internetz for figuring out I was ignorant and having the guts to say to when no one else did. I hope your level of smugness is satisfying. Really... I do.

Second,

You didn't respond to me. Unless you're posting under multiple alts or a mod deleted your post (that ironically I never saw,) I can't see how you got the impression that I took offense to anything you said.

Thirdly,

The only thing I've said, wrapped in a plethora of hyperbole, was that most discs with any history (including the buzzz) have have multiple series runs offering variations in feel and flight characteristics. Rocs have that 3 major series molds adding to the number of combinations offered for that single "disc" (flat tops, CFR, classic, etc.) Is this not the case?


Warning: The below is a parade of my opinion. I'm really ignorant, so you probably shouldn't read it (the marching band isn't that good.)

Because of the above, I'm not a fan.

It's been said multiple times on the forums (and even in this thread) that 1st run buzzz's that people are paying large prices for are extremely close to current run Z buzzz's. What I take from that is that I'm not missing much by buying what's available off the shelf. It's got nothing to do with replacement costs in my mind and everything to do with replacement availability. I also tend toward Champ/Z/Opto plastic, and as Triflusal so eloquently put Champ rocs are pricey.

Yeah, I went to a store one time asking about Rancho rocs to try one. The guy wasn't sure, and I wasn't overly eager to buy. The disc most likely had a stamp. I just didn't look that hard.

His point wasn't that you had already taken offense, it was that he knew you probably would after reading his post.





Which you did.
opcorn:

 

[garublador]

Hegemony, the part you're completely ignoring that people keep saying is that normal, off the shelf DX and KC Pro Rocs (which are in, and have been in normal production since 1998 I I think) are the only Rocs you need to worry about. Ironically, I'd say there's a better chance of the Buzzz being discontinued than the Roc. Discraft tends to discontinue "staple" molds more often than Innova. Look at what happened to the MRV (probably the best, small diameter mid ever made), the X2 (only direct Teebird competitor so far), XTreme (direct competitor to the Whippet) and Reaper/Xtra (both direct competitors to the Banshee). Those are all really good "staple" discs that, IIRC, debuted after the Rancho Roc was in normal production and have been discontinued because Discraft decided to push other discs instead. If you're looking for long term off the shelf availability, the Rancho Roc has most discs in production easily beat.

The only production Rocs I've ever seen (I've been playing since 2004) that haven't been Rancho Rocs have said something other than "Roc" on the front and didn't qualify it with "Classic." There are no KC Pro Classic Rocs, so those are all easy to tell apart. DX Rocs have a giant bird on the front, so they're pretty easy to pick out, too. They also don't feel like a putter like the Classic Roc does. What Innova calls a "Roc" is a Rancho Roc. Anything else is called something else.

 

[smyith]

First,

I'm an ignorant wretch. You got me You win one internetz for figuring out I was ignorant and having the guts to say to when no one else did. I hope your level of smugness is satisfying. Really... I do.
Very Satisfying

Second,

You didn't respond to me. Unless you're posting under multiple alts or a mod deleted your post (that ironically I never saw,) I can't see how you got the impression that I took offense to anything you said.
See Below Comment. And second i did respond, you apparently didnt know(based on YOUR post how to tell the difference between Rocs, and to claim a disc doesnt having any tooling makes you an idiot, blind, or ignorant.

Thirdly,

The only thing I've said, wrapped in a plethora of hyperbole, was that most discs with any history (including the buzzz) have have multiple series runs offering variations in feel and flight characteristics. Rocs have that 3 major series molds adding to the number of combinations offered for that single "disc" (flat tops, CFR, classic, etc.) Is this not the case?
Why are you sending me to ThreePutts post? you didnt say this in your post that i commented on. nor does it have anything to do with what you said.

This is what you said

Rocs have some of that PLUS the different molds. FWIW, last store I was in had labeled San Marino rocs and some rocs that had no label and no inside tooling that I could find <--impossible, all innova discs have the tooling info on them. If you buy a current run ESP or Z Buzzz, you know exactly what you're getting. <--not true, there are alot of vairances in the Buzzz molds

I conjecture that a lot of the 1st run/tramp stamp differentiation is self-pleasuring in nature. However, I haven't played with enough versions of the same disc to assert it as a fact. <-- you just stated your ignorance on the subject. and yes all 4 molds fly very different from one another(i include the Roc+ as a different mold)

His point wasn't that you had already taken offense, it was that he knew you probably would after reading his post.





Which you did.
opcorn:

^^What he said

 

[cali]

I like them both.

 

[jtbingster]

not true, there are alot of vairances in the Buzzz molds

Not current runs... unless you're just talking about plastic differences that are to be expected (like Z being more stable than ESP).

 

[smyith]

Not current runs... unless you're just talking about plastic differences that are to be expected (like Z being more stable than ESP).

dome my man, dome... from run to run as well. the differences are subtle but notable. ill give it to you that its nowhere near the variance of the different Roc molds.

P.S. the second quote in your signature. ive heard that before, but i cant remember who said it.

 

[Hegemony]

This really isn't worth arguing about, however I will post a couple of things for clarity.

His point wasn't that you had already taken offense, it was that he knew you probably would after reading his post.


Which you did.

I don't buy this. Here's why (I've left out the part where I was called ignorant and accused of getting offended.):

every innova disc has a patent # and Location of the molding. it is incredibly easy to know which Roc you're looking at. hot stamps are meaningless in standard runs. why? some stamps are used for several years and multiple runs.

I had no prior or post argument with this comment. I left open the possibility that I missed the tooling in my first post and later affirmed that I didn't look that hard. The last couple of sentences are actually useful info to me. There's no reason in any of that text for me to get offended.

Hegemony, the part you're completely ignoring that people keep saying is that normal, off the shelf DX and KC Pro Rocs (which are in, and have been in normal production since 1998 I I think) are the only Rocs you need to worry about.

Respectfully, I'm not completely ignoring that. As I said previously, I prefer champ plastic feel for permanent spots in my bag. I do test discs in DX and understand that there's typcially a stability difference in plastics. Premium plastic Rocs are almost all CFR runs (unless something has changed since Three Putt's post,) and those are in the varied molds.

In all fairness though, just in the few posts between this back-and-forth several people have stated that current run Z buzzz's, again premium plastic, are virtually the same as the expensive ultra-sought after 1st runs. Your points about Discrafts history with discontinuing molds are very valid though.

The only production Rocs I've ever seen (I've been playing since 2004) that haven't been Rancho Rocs have said something other than "Roc" on the front and didn't qualify it with "Classic." There are no KC Pro Classic Rocs, so those are all easy to tell apart. DX Rocs have a giant bird on the front, so they're pretty easy to pick out, too. They also don't feel like a putter like the Classic Roc does. What Innova calls a "Roc" is a Rancho Roc. Anything else is called something else.

Great info! Seriously thanks!

but I think this kind of proves my point at the same time that is simplifies it. If it's such common knowledge, why are there pages of threads asking about the Roc molds? Why wouldn't a DG store employee who has been playing long enough to have collector discs not know something so simple?

Calling me... anything really.. doesn't answer either of those questions. I think this is a case where people who are in the know don't understand why people who aren't in the know don't get it. I'm a bit disappointed that a forum moderator would come to the defense of smyith's unwarranted agressiveness, but i won't be losing sleep over it.

Back on topic, it's telling to me that the most concise, descriptive information about the varied Roc molds is a 4 year old thread reply pages deep on this forum. I had read it before this thread which is how I knew to look for it when trying to clarify what I was saying (but apparently not communicating well) which brings me to...

I conjecture that a lot of the 1st run/tramp stamp differentiation is self-pleasuring in nature. However, I haven't played with enough versions of the same disc to assert it as a fact. <-- you just stated your ignorance on the subject. and yes all 4 molds fly very different from one another(i include the Roc+ as a different mold)

You're misunderstanding. I'm talking about nuances between 1st run, 2nd run, etc. here. I said that, but I guess I wasn't specific enough. I'm NOT talking about the difference between San Marino Rocs vs Rancho Rocs. Yes, it's obvious all over the place that Rancho's are more stable than the other versions. For example, I've seen discussions on this forum weighing the differences between original San Marino discs and the later specialty runs.

Secondly, it's not really a big win to call out that opinion for not being based in fact when I specifically qualified it as such up front. You want to call me out for being inconsistent in my philosophy, here's an easy one: You could infer from my posts and signature that I throw CFR Cros (I do.) This goes completely against my complaint about Rocs. I'm strangely ok with it though as I haven't found it difficult to find CFR Cros.

I'm still at a loss for why the hell this got so aggressive. Oh well...

 

[cfair]

WHOA HA! I'm taking bets on this cat fight. I'll give anyone 3-1 odds on Hegemony, and if garu jumps in for anything significant I'll go 10-1.

P.S. the second quote in your signature. ive heard that before, but i cant remember who said it.

As for this, its a comedian. I believe it was a women.

and Hegey, don't worry about why it got so aggressive. Sometimes things on forums don't get communicated the way they were meant to. I won't hold any beef with you (my parents taught me not to let anyone touch my bathing suit area)

But on a serious note

If it's such common knowledge, why are there pages of threads asking about the Roc molds? Why wouldn't a DG store employee who has been playing long enough to have collector discs not know something so simple?

In DG there are a couple of different streams. Stream one being forum goers like ourselves who have great resources in ThreePutt, Booter, Garu, Blake T, jbtuhib (butchered your name, sorry), Frank D, and other very knowledgeable players to draw information from. Then there are the production people a.k.a. those with connections in the industry and have access to a wealth of information in one area of DG (be it a specific company, event, time period, whatever). Then there are those that are heavily involved in DG (regular tourney players, shop owners, TDs ect) who have been around a long time and are rooted into DG but don't have all the information. Finally there are Rec players, people who play casually have misguided knowledge often and are just dipping their toes in the water.

The shop owners fall into that category I mentioned above. I like the shop owners I've met but some of them still tend to be misinformed or just not have been properly exposed to good information despite their involvement in the sport. I've heard some dumb things from shop workers...

 

[cfair]

This really isn't worth arguing about, however I will post a couple of things for clarity.

just saw this. its statements like this that give warning to something ironic

 

[crusadersounds]

This is just funny. Thread title sounds like WWI: "The War to end all Wars" Actually, the OP was a good idea. Unfortunately, after about a page and a half, the rules of the OP went out the window. Oh well, I throw them both and I have different purposes for both, so I don't care!

 

[cfair]

what pray tell, are your different purposes?