Selah Ranch

[dreadlock86]

i still haven't gotten a chance to play this hole yet...
but i still trust John's opinion here.

has anyone gone to the landing area(s) and just thrown "2nd shots" to see if there is a place from where you can easily reach the basket? if the designer is telling me that there are multiple lines to the basket from the landing area, i'd be trying to find them and see the birdie that he says is there.

also, what are the open players doing during these tournaments? it would be interesting to see how many people in the course of a tournament card a 3 and what they did to get it.

 

[johnrhouck]

has anyone gone to the landing area(s) and just thrown "2nd shots" to see if there is a place from where you can easily reach the basket? if the designer is telling me that there are multiple lines to the basket from the landing area, i'd be trying to find them and see the birdie that he says is there.

Thanks Dread, and you are dead on. That is the way to approach the hole. There are multiple landing areas, and again, I SWEAR to all of you that if you are at any point on any of the landing areas, you will have at least one absolutely makeable shot up to the circle.

Next time you're out there, go stand on the landing areas, and you'll see what I mean. Then go back to the tee and find the lines to the landing areas.

If someone does that and then wants to argue that the landing areas are too small (I think the smallest is maybe 25'-30' wide by maybe 30' deep), then I'm happy to have that conversation. But the landing areas ARE there, and the lines ARE there.

I knew this hole would generate discussion, but I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

As for Open players on this hole, there just really haven't been any big tournaments with open players. But I bet there are some savvy ADV players who have figured it out. I'll check the scorecards from this weekend, but -- again -- they played it in major rain and mud.

As for the video we've been promising of this hole, the studio has insisted on another re-write, so we're still stuck in production. Next time I'm out at Selah, maybe I'll just do one with my phone...

 

[sloppydisc]

John speaks truth. There are a few spots where he designed landing zones at Rock Ridge in Pittsboro, and upon my first few looks I really doubted his word. But IMO some of John's landing zones and lines are pretty precise. I have found them, but with my skill level I can't execute the tee shot or second shot as often as I'd like. I noticed this painful reality at WR Jackson also. Sometimes being a few feet off makes the angles on the second shot a little too difficult for us mediocre golfers. Or perhaps it is better to say that making the correct shot, and hitting the landing zone correctly leaves you with a much better shot at the approach.

 

[Scttwlsh80]

Humble beautiful golf - that is what I found out there this past weekend - hole 14 included. Stepping up to that particular tee box and seeing the twizzle sticks of possible routes - I found the joy of having to think through the entire hole. To the point where, since we were playing the course blind, I saw that the easy hyzer line, which led to a certain landing zone, would not produce the type of window to a birdie that would fit my game. So, I thought about something that Mr Houck wrote recently about the difference of "risk and reward" vs "risk or reward". From a design perspective, I found hole 14 to be extremely fun - well placed amongst the other holes and a fair hole more driven by the player's game than one completely orchestrated by the designer. Thank you John.

 

[Allurex]

Excerpt from my write-up for AM Worlds Doubles-

The courses at Selah were awesome, I preferred Creekside over the Lake course. Lots of beautiful landscapes, some really risky shots, and a bunch of really tough Par 4s and 5s. The Lakeside course had all of that as well, but also had a middle bunch of holes that were really wooded that I didn't like as much. Still mostly great holes but just weren't as much fun.

As for specific holes? Hard to say on much.

#15 on Lakeside is the only one that I have a specific gripe with, which was that I thought the tee shot was too tight to get to the landing zones. I love the look down the fairway from the short pad, and the subsequent approach shot down the two halves towards the basket. I just felt that neither line from the long tee was really trustworthy. The hyzer line puts you with no way to approach the 2nd half of the fairway, and the straight line is just too tight for even very accurate players to hit regularly.

Same could be said for #9, really.

There were a handful of others holes that I felt I was playing poke-n-hope on; #12 comes to mind specifically.

All in all, small complaints, really. No complaints on Creekside, that I can think of. That course is a blast.

PS: Almost forgot, I wasn't happy with the lines on #2 at Lakeside either. The safe layup shot leaves you with no real shot at the basket, unless you are a lefty or have a capable forehand. The only play for RHBH is a layup only 100 feet off of the long pad.

 

[grodney]

I believe the first half of the hole is pretty fair. Once you start going back uphill it's just a crapshoot. I think more trees should be removed on the second half of the fairway making 3 separate distinct fairways similar to the first half of the hole.

Agreed that the gaps on the first half are reasonable. But if you leave it as-is and just make some alleys and/or gaps on the 2nd half, then I'm concerned that you'd end up with a shot-and-a-half type hole. That's why I was asking if there was any room to lengthen it.

I guess your suggestion would be a good first step. Fix the 2nd half, then see if the length/challenge/risk/reward is appropriate. If not, then you can consider more drastic changes of lengthening the tee or shortening the entire hole to a 1-shot hole.

 

[grodney]

has anyone gone to the landing area(s) and just thrown "2nd shots" to see if there is a place from where you can easily reach the basket?

Yes, we did that. There is one tiny little alley for the 2nd shot. The alley itself is too narrow for its length, but hitting the landing area to use that little alley is nearly impossible -- so it's moot anyway.

Apparently a thumber/tommy over the top is a viable option on the 2nd, but none in my group really have that shot -- it's pretty high. I did have one round where I happened to have a high left gap and good footing (it was like winning the lottery), so I threw a SUPER-high backhand anhyzer to get over everything. It was a still a crapshoot, but it worked out and got me within 40 feet or so.

 

[grodney]

There are multiple landing areas, and again, I SWEAR to all of you that if you are at any point on any of the landing areas, you will have at least one absolutely makeable shot up to the circle.

Next time you're out there, go stand on the landing areas, and you'll see what I mean. Then go back to the tee and find the lines to the landing areas.

You said that last year. We were looking for it. We didn't see it.

There is one tiny little alley that diagonals left-to-right up the hill, but the "landing area" to use it is probably 5 feet wide, and the alley is too narrow to use effectively anyway.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying 6 guys played it 6 times, looking for these landing areas. We didn't find them.

 

[grodney]

#15 on Lakeside is the only one that I have a specific gripe with, which was that I thought the tee shot was too tight to get to the landing zones. I love the look down the fairway from the short pad, and the subsequent approach shot down the two halves towards the basket. I just felt that neither line from the long tee was really trustworthy. The hyzer line puts you with no way to approach the 2nd half of the fairway, and the straight line is just too tight for even very accurate players to hit regularly.

Same could be said for #9, really.

There were a handful of others holes that I felt I was playing poke-n-hope on; #12 comes to mind specifically.

All in all, small complaints, really. No complaints on Creekside, that I can think of. That course is a blast.

PS: Almost forgot, I wasn't happy with the lines on #2 at Lakeside either. The safe layup shot leaves you with no real shot at the basket, unless you are a lefty or have a capable forehand. The only play for RHBH is a layup only 100 feet off of the long pad.

Sweet, let's discuss.

Lakeside #15. Agree there's not a lot of merit to taking the right side. It's not wide enough and doesn't guarantee a clean 2nd even if your 1st is clean. Most of us played the left line (which is too tight, as you say), but with no real advantage to the right side, we just hoped to hit our line.

Lakeside #9. The straight drive is pretty tight. There is a non-obvious right-side hyzer off the tee that is easier. It doesn't get you as far up the fairway, but it's less risky. Overall I think the hole and gaps are okay, but that center gap is barely on the "okay" side of "too tight".

Lakeside #12. Again, tight, but I think okay. I certainly felt lots of pressure to hit a line, but at least there's a line and it's hittable. I would not characterize it as poke-and-hope. Nothing like the 2nd shot of #14 where there isn't a line at all.

Lakeside #2. Really don't agree with you here. I posted earlier in this thread about how much I love this hole. From the long tee, I play a 200-foot layup, thus leaving a 325 foot hyzer over the water. Other guys played a longer drive along the water. Other guys played a longer drive into the left gap, leaving a tricky forehand or backhand anhyzer. Unless the wind is totally devious, I think there are lots of viable options here.

Creekside #10. This is like Lakeside #15. The left is way too tight (for me). The right offers a reasonable fairway for a good length, but then it's just a crapshoot where you land and whether you have an unencumbered 2nd. The trees are spaced enough that you can usually make something up, but you still might get screwed into having nothing, and no realistic way to get home in 3. If I'm taking the safe route, it feels like I shouldn't have to reach into a bag of tricks and/or get lucky just to get to the pin in regulation.

Story: In our only singles round on Lakeside long tees, my group of 3 (approx ratings 910, 925, 950) got 5,5,5 on #14, then on #15 we all 3 took the left line and nobody hit a tree(!). We all had putts for 4, but went 4,5,6.

 

[johnrhouck]

There are a few spots where he designed landing zones at Rock Ridge in Pittsboro, and upon my first few looks I really doubted his word. But IMO some of John's landing zones and lines are pretty precise. I have found them...

Mr. Sloppy, I'm glad to hear that you have found the landing areas and can recognize the routes to the pin from there. In particular, #5 at Rock Ridge has a lot in common with Lakeside #14. Both have three landing areas just above the bottom of a small valley, and both have tight uphill lines to a basket that's only about 150' away.

So, Rodney, I think I owe you a Shiner or you owe me one -- I forget -- and I'll go double or nothing with you. Here's the bet: I can show you a minimum of 6 tee pad locations, all within 200' of the basket, where you would say, "This would make a fair hole from here to the basket -- it's just maybe too short to be a real hole, and the pad's a little close to a tree."

AND I'll bet you that at least two of those tee pads will have more than one fair line.

Now here's something even funnier:

Agreed that the gaps on the first half are reasonable.

In my mind, the gaps off the tee are much less reasonable than the alleys to the basket. No comparison. I've always worried about the lines off the tee; never worried about the lines to the pin. Or, I should say, to the circle. A couple of the lines are meant to give you about 20' if you make a good shot. Takes a superior shot to hit the lock.

So, when can you come back to Selah?

 

[grodney]

So, Rodney, I think I owe you a Shiner or you owe me one -- I forget -- and I'll go double or nothing with you. Here's the bet: I can show you a minimum of 6 tee pad locations, all within 200' of the basket, where you would say, "This would make a fair hole from here to the basket -- it's just maybe too short to be a real hole, and the pad's a little close to a tree."

AND I'll bet you that at least two of those tee pads will have more than one fair line.

So, when can you come back to Selah?

The answer to the last question is March, unfortunately. As for the rest, I don't know what to say. One guy in our group said we could all walk out to the valley and set our discs down wherever we want, and we STILL wouldn't have a fair shot to get anywhere close.

If it weren't for the other reviewers and posters on this thread, I would think we were suffering from some Iowa Boy Group Delusion or something.

 

[jongoff09]

In my mind, the gaps off the tee are much less reasonable than the alleys to the basket. No comparison. I've always worried about the lines off the tee; never worried about the lines to the pin. Or, I should say, to the circle. A couple of the lines are meant to give you about 20' if you make a good shot. Takes a superior shot to hit the lock.

I still don't understand the hate for the 2nd shots to this hole. My partner and I both took a 4 on that hole in the rain/wind/mud last weekend. I just barely missed my gap on my 2nd throw or I would have had a 25'er for birdie. I clipped an early tree because I slipped a bit. My partner didn't have a great drive and was back some ways, but he made a good throw and was I think 65' away for his 3rd.

The cool thing is that we both took entirely different routs from the tee. I always go left and try to hit the furthest landing zone over there to get a hyzer approach on that line. As it was last weekend, I was about 15' short of where I wanted to be, so I had to hit another fair line with an anhyzer instead. My partner took one of the right routs and would have had a great look if his drive was better.

You can't be aiming at the basket on your 2nd, no. You can, however, aim for a spot some 15-30 feet away and give yourself a look at the birdie.

 

[johnrhouck]

I always go left and try to hit the furthest landing zone over there to get a hyzer approach on that line. As it was last weekend, I was about 15' short of where I wanted to be, so I had to hit another fair line with an anhyzer instead. My partner took one of the right routs and would have had a great look if his drive was better.

For what it's worth, Jon, I'm with you. I think the left landing area is easiest to get to (for me), and I prefer the looks from there.

As for where the delusion lies, Rodney, you know that I have great respect for the course evaluation skills of all the Iowa Boys. I have no doubt that the proper lines are there, but if guys like you can't find them after repeated attempts, there must be a way I can improve the hole, so I'll have to think that over.

One solution might be to do what we did at Trey Deuce #18, which was to bring out a bulldozer and shape the landing area to make it more obvious. Maybe we can do some of that at Selah some day.

 

[SpringDgLover]

Thanks Dread, and you are dead on. That is the way to approach the hole. There are multiple landing areas, and again, I SWEAR to all of you that if you are at any point on any of the landing areas, you will have at least one absolutely makeable shot up to the circle.

Next time you're out there, go stand on the landing areas, and you'll see what I mean. Then go back to the tee and find the lines to the landing areas.

If someone does that and then wants to argue that the landing areas are too small (I think the smallest is maybe 25'-30' wide by maybe 30' deep), then I'm happy to have that conversation. But the landing areas ARE there, and the lines ARE there.

I knew this hole would generate discussion, but I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

As for Open players on this hole, there just really haven't been any big tournaments with open players. But I bet there are some savvy ADV players who have figured it out. I'll check the scorecards from this weekend, but -- again -- they played it in major rain and mud.

As for the video we've been promising of this hole, the studio has insisted on another re-write, so we're still stuck in production. Next time I'm out at Selah, maybe I'll just do one with my phone...

Sorry John have to respectfully disagree, that hole is by far one of your poorest. The "fairways" or if thats what you'd like to call them are far to narrow to facilitate the natural flight of a disc. All the varying paths should be consolidated to create two larger fairways. 10 foot wide fairways on a 400+ plus hole are not good no matter how much youd like to sell us on "landing zones". Also the third landing zone on 7 has far to many trees on it. Where luck as much as skill comes into play. The area is already small and when you left trees there it really favors the lucky player over the skilled player. In fact in my round there I threw a much better shot then my partner and his stayed on while mine hit a tree and flew OB. That is inexcusable, good shots should not be punished.

 

[SpringDgLover]

Also and I dont mean to bag on John Houck because he's a great course designer but 18 at Trey Deuce is horrid. Really a bad hole all around, not a par 3 and actually pretty dangerous up by the basket, with barb wire, rusted metal and other objects there to mess you up. Also a teesign in the middle of a fairway as an obstacle? Really John you know better.

 

[eegor]

I'm by no means a very good player. Average to slightly above average I'd say. Hole 7 on Lakeside was not that tough on the second landing zone. The trees are far enough to the right to remain out of play unless all you can throw is a hyzer shot. Hole 7 is disc golf art at its best.

Hole 14 is tough, but again... throwing straight is the key. Every hole doesn't have to have hyzer lines.

 

[SpringDgLover]

I'm by no means a very good player. Average to slightly above average I'd say. Hole 7 on Lakeside was not that tough on the second landing zone. The trees are far enough to the right to remain out of play unless all you can throw is a hyzer shot. Hole 7 is disc golf art at its best.

Hole 14 is tough, but again... throwing straight is the key. Every hole doesn't have to have hyzer lines.

Its not about hyzer lines, I threw it from the longs, I laid up to the short box then threw an high annhyzer shot with a wraith, it flew the exact distance was about to land and then bam into a tree, there is no need for trees there, all they add is a luck factor to a hole that otherwise is perfect. Im well aware on how to throw straight thats not the issue, the issue is about the release and flight of a disc, no matter what you may think no disc stays completely straight and they tend to move either right or left. When you have a ten foot wide fairway these movements get penalized unfairly. We dont throw rocks that go in dead straight trajectories we throw discs.

 

[eegor]

The trees are far enough right (from the tee) on the landing area for a well placed and fair shot. Luck is not a factor.

 

[SpringDgLover]

Um what? Look at the blue area thats your landing zone like maybe 30ft wide, for a 320+ shot over water with a bunch of trees to the right, the entire penisula should be the landing zone, not that tiny area!!

 

[eegor]

It wouldn't be a great hole if it was easy. I contend that it's fair. A good shot is rewarded. Taking away the risk would take away the challenge of the hole. Too many trees are cut down on disc golf courses in the name of "what should be".

Golf is a test of skill that requires distance, accuracy and touch. Courses that test these skills are the best courses.