How much power comes from the arm?

[loki993]

I was at a clinic last night and I saw something noticeable, at first you would think its a no brainer, but actually seeing it up close is different I suppose.

When I watch videos and see people throw in person, especially good ones, it looks like when they throw they're using very little effort and it just goes.

Looking at people throwing its seems more about shooting the hips and turning the shoulders then the arm....almost like the arm is just along for the ride and it just the whip part of the throw.....


How accurate is that? How much power should I be applying with my arm?

I went into the field and tried it...making sure I got a good shoulder and hip turn, problem was I actually lost distance and was basically back where I started 250 or shorter the discs going straight but not really doing much of anything.....could it just be that not my timings off again after adding that and it just need to come back or am I doing something wrong.....

I think maybe I'm missing the snap or whip at the end of the throw..

 

[jenb]

I find I get more distance the more I focus on imparting maximum spin to the disc as opposed to forward momentum. Just focus on making it sing through the air.

 

[garublador]

I think maybe I'm missing the snap or whip at the end of the throw..

That's the important part. The reason some people throw way farther than others is becasue of the last 12" of their throw. It looks like they're putting less effort into it because you're watching for effort in the wrong place.

 

[loki993]

I find I get more distance the more I focus on imparting maximum spin to the disc as opposed to forward momentum. Just focus on making it sing through the air.

how do you get a lot of spin on it...

That's the important part. The reason some people throw way farther than others is becasue of the last 12" of their throw. It looks like they're putting less effort into it because you're watching for effort in the wrong place.

That was the part I was just starting to get, I would really concentrate on slow to fast and really try to wait until the very end and then accelerate and it was working....but I wasn't getting a lot of hips or shoulders into the throw....

 

[Kenny53691]

That's the important part. The reason some people throw way farther than others is becasue of the last 12" of their throw. It looks like they're putting less effort into it because you're watching for effort in the wrong place.

Words of wisdom!

 

[loki993]

I think I need to concentrate on getting the hip and shoulders in while getting my arm in the right spot to really hit it at the end

Basically what everyone seems to say...hips then shoulders then pop the arm.... only problem is when Im trying to turn the hips and shoulders I have a hard time getting the disc on the right position to get that power...

 

[5QU166Y]

There is a lot of good information on this exact topic over at DGR. I would suggest searching for "stopping the elbow." When I learned how to do this effectively, I had much more control, dramatically less OAT, and more distance.

 

[SirRaph]

I'm one of those players that can strongarm 385-400'. But I know I don't get any real snap/whip/whatever you want to call it.

That's my annoyance with most of the instructional videos you see, save for maybe Beato's. Everyone wants to focus on the hips and shoulders and heel/toe pivot and form. Granted, that's all important. But you could have flawless form and still never really learn to snap a disc. And there are some power arms out there that have poor-to-decent form.

This particular video, this particular throw was sort of eye-opening to me: McBeth Slow Mo Drive at 33 seconds

That last part, right after the disc meets his chest and his arm is fully bent, THAT'S where distance really comes in. I've never been able to get it, no matter how much field work I put in, no matter how many Beato drills, etc.

I think I've developed some bad muscle memory as I approach the hit. But I've watched all the videos, taken notes, filmed myself, posted and taken tips, etc. etc. I'm still strong arming.

Very frustrating.

For anyone in the Chicagoland area that can teach me to actually snap the disc, I have $300 with your name on it.

 

[jrawk]

I'll try and answer the original question -- Strong-arming is a technique best applied when approaching... ie. muscling a tough shot from bad lie when you can't get any torsoe rotation. I can strong arm a driver 150ft with okay accuracy. However if had enough room to stand and deliver with proper technique, i could lay up 150 ft with a putter much more accurately than strong arming that driver.

So yeah, you can't really overlay the two techniques, because they contradict each other.

 

[jeverett]

I'm one of those players that can strongarm 385-400'. But I know I don't get any real snap/whip/whatever you want to call it.

That's my annoyance with most of the instructional videos you see, save for maybe Beato's. Everyone wants to focus on the hips and shoulders and heel/toe pivot and form. Granted, that's all important. But you could have flawless form and still never really learn to snap a disc. And there are some power arms out there that have poor-to-decent form.

I have to admit that this description fits me pretty accurately, too. I'm also able to essentially strongarm 385-400. I see this most clearly with how much high-speed turn I get relative to other players throwing similar distances as me.. i.e. I have to throw a more stable disc than a player with higher spin when we're each throwing the same distance and line.

 

[Dan Ensor]

About 80% of distance comes from the waist up.

 

[loki993]

About 80% of distance comes from the waist up.

How much of that comes from the shoulders?

 

[garublador]

I'm one of those players that can strongarm 385-400'. But I know I don't get any real snap/whip/whatever you want to call it.

That's actually relatively easy to learn. You don't need to be especially strong to do it, either. It's just what you get if you have good mechanics but mediocre timing.

That's my annoyance with most of the instructional videos you see, save for maybe Beato's. Everyone wants to focus on the hips and shoulders and heel/toe pivot and form. Granted, that's all important. But you could have flawless form and still never really learn to snap a disc. And there are some power arms out there that have poor-to-decent form.

And that's why so many people get stuck at that plateau. Most people focus on the big, easy to see and replicate motions that only marginally help and ignore the small, difficult to see and replicate motion that helps the most. If you're OK with being at that plateau then that's fine, but not everyone is OK with that.

The kicker here is that you can have good mechanics that allow you to throw like that, but also prevent you from throwing farther. You may never find "snap" if you build your throw that way because your mechanics might be preventing good timing.

However, if you've spent the time to build up good mechanics it will likely be easier for you to rebuild your throw to learn and incorporate good mechanics. You have to be willing to start all over, though. Much of your throw will probably be incorporated into your new throw but you won't know what little thing you're doing is stopping you from getting snap until you build your throw from the hit back.

Here's a thread at DGR that explains it well:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24905

So the hammer pound is great to do right away. It teaches you what it should feel like to have the disc rip out of your hand. General things like weight shift and big timing issues (e.g. starting your pull after you plant, not at the same time you plant) are good to focus on first. Once you get those figured out then it's easier to try to incorporate those small adjustments. Either way I think being focused on the hit above all else is the right way to look at it.

 

[loki993]

Edit....I think you may have answered my question below....


I guess what I'm wondering is should I be concentrating on getting a good shoulder turn or a good snap through at the end of the throw....obviously its both but which is more important?

I'm not really sure because before I would get good snap and late accel on the disc and it would fly well and I had more distance....however when I see all the pros throw or teach throwing they all have really big shoulder turns.......

Its also timing though and I know mine is off right now....I think I'm turning and the snapping and that may be a bit backwards...I think my shoulders need to come through after that point or even ideally, i'd imagine, as I'm snapping....

 

[notroman]

You're asking how much all the different body parts contribute to the throw...and it's not like someone throwing is going like "well I'm using about 20% shoulders, 40% hips, 10% that, 40% this, etc". The point is that everything is working together.

People say that when I throw it looks really effortless and those that have never seen me throw always think I screwed up and totally fluffed my drive, but then they watch it go and go.. It has been a while since I've seen myself on video but I wouldn't mind watching it again because even though they say it looks like I'm not putting any effort into the throw, I feel like I'm throwing pretty hard. Especially when I'm trying to go for distance.

Really to get an efficient and powerful throw everything has to come together to the point when you actually snap the disc forward, and that's when you really try to hit it as hard as you can (if you're going for distance). So things leading up to it might look nice and easy and calm, because all you're doing is building momentum, but then you really power down on it as you snap the disc - which is really just a split second of the throw. To the outside eye it may not look like a person put any effort into the throw, but the person throwing is definitely feeling the force he's putting behind the disc on release.

 

[loki993]

You're asking how much all the different body parts contribute to the throw...and it's not like someone throwing is going like "well I'm using about 20% shoulders, 40% hips, 10% that, 40% this, etc". The point is that everything is working together.

People say that when I throw it looks really effortless and those that have never seen me throw always think I screwed up and totally fluffed my drive, but then they watch it go and go.. It has been a while since I've seen myself on video but I wouldn't mind watching it again because even though they say it looks like I'm not putting any effort into the throw, I feel like I'm throwing pretty hard. Especially when I'm trying to go for distance.

Really to get an efficient and powerful throw everything has to come together to the point when you actually snap the disc forward, and that's when you really try to hit it as hard as you can (if you're going for distance). So things leading up to it might look nice and easy and calm, because all you're doing is building momentum, but then you really power down on it as you snap the disc - which is really just a split second of the throw. To the outside eye it may not look like a person put any effort into the throw, but the person throwing is definitely feeling the force he's putting behind the disc on release.

I see. I notice that will all the good throwers, never seen you throw before, but thats the noticeable thing....it looks like they're putting no effort into it at all. Thats what I'm trying to work towards, when the mechanics are right it should look like that. My problem is I'm almost too technical and analytical. I feel like I need to know whats going on in every part of the throw and I'll analyze every part wondering if I'm doing something wrong or not....

Just last night I was at a clinic and Garrett Guthrie was there...he popped two shots with a mid like it was nothing and they both went probably 350-400.....but it didn't look like he threw them hard at all. I also noticed that his arm hardly bends, its nearly straight all the way through his throw. I even mentioned it...he said its all his hips and shoulders coming through. Scott Papa was there too and he even said that Garrett probably keeps his arm straighter than anyone else out there. I tried it and it doesn't seem to work for me lol....

 

[Dan Ensor]

Yep, then Beto is on the other end of the spectrum, but still bombs it. They both get "disc pivot" (don't know if that's still an accepted term), but they use different levers to achieve it.

 

[notroman]

Yep, GG just has a lower pull to get more leverage. Hard to pull the disc across your gut with your arm bent

Really what you're looking for is the hit and really the best way to get it is to do those pec drills that everyone hates so much. You just want to isolate that one little motion and do it until you finally get it right. You can't launch a disc from your pec without snapping it. I mean you might get it 100-150ft from just slinging, but unless you actively snap your wrist and eject that disc, you won't get any real distance. Once you get the feel for that rip/snap and see the disc actually flying you can start adding reach back, then footwork, etc. The snap is all the same in the end.

 

[loki993]

Yep, then Beto is on the other end of the spectrum, but still bombs it. They both get "disc pivot" (don't know if that's still an accepted term), but they use different levers to achieve it.

Yeah I think I need the arm bend...I tried to straight arm a few and use my shoulders and whip my arm like that, the discs actually came out clean and went really straight, just not far and they didn't fly right. I threw a valk, and eagle and a leo and they all landed straight ahead just about one right behind the other...there was no turn on them at all....now I only did a few throws like so who knows..but I was doing much better pulling across, bending at the elbow and concentrating on really popping it and the end...

 

[bthoma1]

I have to admit that this description fits me pretty accurately, too. I'm also able to essentially strongarm 385-400. I see this most clearly with how much high-speed turn I get relative to other players throwing similar distances as me.. i.e. I have to throw a more stable disc than a player with higher spin when we're each throwing the same distance and line.

It's actually because your left handed...