Elver and Hiestand Park

[Stardoggy]

The gold old "we pay taxes" argument. It's not just disc golf. Madison Parks charges fees for cross-country skiing, dog parks, boat launch access and golf courses. They also charge organizations that run soccer, Ultimate, softball, baseball tournaments,etc. It's not just disc golf and it's not just parks. Toll roads come to mind. The people using the disc golf course are paying for its maintenance and capital improvements. This makes a lot of sense to me. Side note...to keep the sport accessible to youth, anyone under age 17 plays for free.

Just because you have a horse in the race doesn't make it the gospel. I find it hilarious that a big city can't keep up its own parks, especially when every small town can make do with their tax base money, and they aren't getting the kickbacks from the federal government that big cities are, and their courses are FREE.

Bird's Ruins is free, and is every bit the course that any of the P2P courses in Madison are (outside of Token, which I haven't played), and is just minutes outside the city. It's a freaking disc golf course...mow the fairways, update a tee pad here and there, get out there with a small chainsaw once a year, and you're good, outside of garbage removal.

You sound stupid when you extol the virtues of paying for CITY PARK courses in multi-use parks. I feel bad for all the big city disc golfers (it's certainly NOT in every bigger city) that have to pay for disc golf because their cities suck at money management.

 

[Steve West]

The Universal Disc Golf Monthly pass costs $24 for unlimited play at all participating courses. I hope the Madison area courses will join.

 

[HeavyCritters]

The Universal Disc Golf Monthly pass costs $24 for unlimited play at all participating courses. I hope the Madison area courses will join.

I LOL'd.

 

[ElementZ]

Just because you have a horse in the race doesn't make it the gospel. I find it hilarious that a big city can't keep up its own parks, especially when every small town can make do with their tax base money, and they aren't getting the kickbacks from the federal government that big cities are, and their courses are FREE.

Bird's Ruins is free, and is every bit the course that any of the P2P courses in Madison are (outside of Token, which I haven't played), and is just minutes outside the city. It's a freaking disc golf course...mow the fairways, update a tee pad here and there, get out there with a small chainsaw once a year, and you're good, outside of garbage removal.

You sound stupid when you extol the virtues of paying for CITY PARK courses in multi-use parks. I feel bad for all the big city disc golfers (it's certainly NOT in every bigger city) that have to pay for disc golf because their cities suck at money management.

I agree with this 100%. I think Madison is the only city in the entire world that charges to play disc in public parks. And with good reason because it's ridiculous...

I mean, it's one thing if someone privately puts in a course and wants people to make donations for his/her work/investment (which is totally acceptable in my mind), but this is a completely different notion.

I think the solution to the problem the city is facing is to build MORE COURSES in Madison.

 

[Disc414]

Actually, Milwaukee adopted the same thing as Madison. Season passes just started at $45 which I don't think is that bad. And what people don't seem to grasp, is that once it happens, there is no stopping it. Other municipalities see money to be made. Remember, government is the biggest big business out there.

 

[ElementZ]

Actually, Milwaukee adopted the same thing as Madison. Season passes just started at $45 which I don't think is that bad. And what people don't seem to grasp, is that once it happens, there is no stopping it. Other municipalities see money to be made. Remember, government is the biggest big business out there.

So you're saying that Madison set off a domino effect. One of the best things about this sport is that it's free to play and Madison is ruining that aspect. It would be really unfortunate if that happened...

 

[Alcuin]

So you're saying that Madison set off a domino effect. One of the best things about this sport is that it's free to play and Madison is ruining that aspect. It would be really unfortunate if that happened...

One of the best things about this sport is that it's free? Is that really what you think? Because I can name many things about this sport that rank in front of the fact that it is free to play.

Also, is $45 really that much money to ask? It's still a very very affordable sport, and as has been mentioned in this thread plenty of times, it is still free for young people who might want to get into the sport.

And I have to laugh at the idea that this is big government coming in to take our sport away. Government is the biggest business, etc. Really? You think the government is somehow profiting off of this? Where do those profits go? Who ends up enriched by this?

The money is going back into the courses for things like soil erosion -- huge problems at Elver and Hiestand, which are about 20 years old now (so when you makie the comparison to Bird's Ruins, keep in mind you're comparing a relatively lightly used, new course to heavily used, decades old courses). They are getting new baskets. They have added new benches, they are taking away trash. They are redesigning Elver. I'm not sure what you guys want for your $45. Take the kids to see a movie and your $45 is gonezo never to return but you have to pay the same for a season of disc golf and you're, sorry to say it, whining all over the internet.

Are any one of you familiar with budgeting and capital projects for major operations like parks? You think its just add a teepad here, take out some trash there, and that's it? Things are much more expensive than you think when you add it all up. The fact is, that if you want nice things you have to pay, and things were not that great before the city got involved. And long term, capital projects are simply not something volunteers can do; with 20 year old courses, you're going to need that. We should be glad the city stepped in to help, because volunteers don't have the time, labor, and fundraising power (i.e. the passes) that the city does.

So please, show me an alternative plan to pay to play that maintains these courses in a responsible, sustainable way. Because we've had volunteers, and that didn't work. What's your plan, beyond shedding salt tears all over an internet forum?

[Sorry for the rant, but this gets me hot under the collar. I hear a lot of moaning about pay to play, but never any alternative plans. And doing nothing is not an alternative plan. If you think Hiestand and Elver don't have issues beyond the scope of what volunteerism can handle, open your eyes.]

 

[scarpfish]

One thing you guys do have to consider when you're being asked to pay for your public courses. It gives you leverage in dealing with the governing body that people with free courses simply don't have. If you don't feel the money you're paying for your passes is netting enough positive return, you can simply stop buying them, and be vocal about why you're not buying them. If enough people get on board with you, they'll be forced to notice when the coffers aren't filling like they used to.

I also don't see every municipality getting on board with pay to play because disc golf is simply too small a presence in their town for it to be worth charging.

 

[Stardoggy]

Give me a break. Sheboygan has the oldest course in Wisconsin (Vollrath Park), and it's free to play. There is also another course in town that is mowed by the city and other maintenance is done by volunteers...and it's also free to play. There are erosion issues, and they're both very heavily played. They DO get volunteers to help, and that's not a problem when the courses are free to play.

Yet SOMEHOW, the city is able to afford the HUGEEEEEEEEEE costs of doing other maintenance. Imagine that...a city that's able to afford upkeep on its own, multi-use parks. Maybe Madison needs new representation that can responsibly allocate its funds and tax money.

 

[Alcuin]

Give me a break. Sheboygan has the oldest course in Wisconsin (Vollrath Park), and it's free to play. There is also another course in town that is mowed by the city and other maintenance is done by volunteers...and it's also free to play. There are erosion issues, and they're both very heavily played. They DO get volunteers to help, and that's not a problem when the courses are free to play.

Yet SOMEHOW, the city is able to afford the HUGEEEEEEEEEE costs of doing other maintenance. Imagine that...a city that's able to afford upkeep on its own, multi-use parks. Maybe Madison needs new representation that can responsibly allocate its funds and tax money.

Total population of Sheboygan as of 2014: 49,288. And its about an hour away from Milwaukee, so you're not going to get an appreciable amount of traffic there.

Total population of Madison metro area: 568,593.

So yeah, you're not getting as much traffic in Sheboygan as we get here. Period. There is a lot more to be done with these courses. If you don't want to play them, stick to your free courses then. Trust me, there will be plenty of people on Madison's courses in any case.

But part of this comes down to a difference in perspective. Can volunteers maintain a course? Sure they can. Can they maintain two courses in a city? Will they expand them? Will they build new ones? Will they purchase new benches? Will they consider progressive ways to improve the courses in general, create a plan to implement those changes, gather the funds to do so, and execute this plan? I haven't seen that happening -- are people really doing long term, large scale improvements to courses and actively seeking to build new courses in your area? I seriously doubt it.

So you can rail against the government for taking your money. You can say that we only seek to maintain the courses with volunteers and don't want to grow them into better courses by pooling our resources using this crazy thing we call a community and society (whose executive arm is local government). And that's fine -- everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

But where will the tournament level courses come from if you guys aren't willing to pay a measly $45 to even maintain? Who will care about disc golf if they think the players don't want to spend a penny to improve the sports' conditions? If you don't want to improve the quality and quantity of courses by aligning with the only institution powerful enough and willing to do so, local municipalities, then fine. But you will not get better courses that way, and if you're interested in "growing the sport" you can forget about that.

Because consider this: EIGHT OUT OF THE TOP TEN COURSES ON DGCOURSEREVIEW ARE PAY TO PLAY. So there's some data that shows you where this trend is going.

So why don't you give me a break? You can't compare Madison with Sheboygan sorry. They are apples to oranges in terms of size. It's ok if you don't want to pay. You can keep your $45 and play free courses. But if you want to play the best courses, and you want to create better courses, you will have to pay. That's a logical direction for this sport to go, and you will be left behind. No one gets everything they want: free courses with tons of support to grow them into something great is what everyone wants. But that is too rare to depend on, and people want better courses and they need their courses to be maintained. So pay to play is happening -- its not a domino effect, it is a responsible way to chart a future for this sport.

 

[Stardoggy]

Because consider this: EIGHT OUT OF THE TOP TEN COURSES ON DGCOURSEREVIEW ARE PAY TO PLAY. So there's some data that shows you where this trend is going.

And they're almost all private courses...so what's YOUR point?

And you're right...comparing Madison to Sheboygan IS apples to oranges. Sheboygan's park system has way less tax dollars to spread around, yet has a remarkably higher courseslayers ratio. To be pay to play, Madison should probably have 3x more courses available.

All you've done with your "argument" is make me realize that my side of the story is more true than I thought.

 

[ElementZ]

As of now, 9 of the top 10 rated courses are private courses. I would expect these to be P2P...

Take a look at Charlotte. Charlotte has phenomenal courses and they're free to play and the city's population is almost twice that of Madison.

 

[Stardoggy]

As of now, 9 of the top 10 rated courses are private courses. I would expect these to be P2P...

Take a look at Charlotte. Charlotte has phenomenal courses and they're free to play and the city's population is almost twice that of Madison.

Don't go interjecting logic into the conversation. It will most definitely fall on deaf ears.

 

[scarpfish]

Different cities have different disc golf cultures too. A city with a bevy of volunteers and a do it yourself ethic who are willing to attend workdays might be better staving off a mandated pay to play policy than one lacking in that department. If Madison area disc golfers have indeed bought that many passes, it shows they're willing to turn that stuff over to the government and are willing to pay that price for whatever amenities it supposedly buys.

At least for now.

 

[ElementZ]

Going back to Charlotte...

Charlotte has 23 18+ hole courses within 20 miles of downtown.

Madison has 6...and they're closed 1/4th of the year (including now).

I think getting more courses would lower traffic at each individual course and thus slow the erosion problem.

 

[Alcuin]

The top courses being private has nothing to do with them being both top courses and pay to play. The fact remains: top courses are pay to play, private or otherwise.

And sure, I wish we had the same kind of disc golf culture that Charlotte has. People move to that area for the disc golf alone. That's just not something you see very often, so when I'm thinking about Madison I'm not hoping for it to magically turn into Charlotte. Different cities, different weather, different disc golf.

And I love the argument about expecting Madison to have more courses since it became pay to play. Things don't happen overnight. This stuff takes a very very long time. The last time we tried to put a course in by the airport last year, a ton of work was unfortunately done before the airport realized the disc golf would share a bit of its space and they shut it down. You can't just go putting disc golf courses in at the drop of a hat. And the city is making improvements to the courses, with more courses in their long term plan.

Ask someone to pay $45 for a season of disc golf and they're suddenly demanding more courses and telling you that you're ripping them off and haven't magically turned this city into Charlotte.

Again, all the best courses are pay to play. That's not a coincidence. That fact that they are private has nothing to do with the fact that the best courses are also pay to play. The courses need a steady and predictable revenue stream, over and above basic maintenance. Volunteerism wasn't working, so the city came in and offered to help. This was accepted eagerly by everyone I know who is involved in the disc golf scene in the city. You guys on the internet can quibble all you want, but ElementZ and everybody else whining about pay to play, how about next time I see you on the course fixing our erosion problems or out planning and building a new course in the area, I'll give you your props and even through a little change your way.

 

[BlazedOrangeHat]

I already said I'm not against P2P if things actually happen. I mean... how hard is it to put in an order for new baskets and some benches? Even if you buy $1,000 benches and $500 baskets... between the two courses that's only $36,000 for a bench on every hole at each course and $18,000 for new baskets on every hole at each course. That's only $54,000 of $160,000 that has been actually generated in the past two years. It's been TWO years. How hard is it to place an order for some benches and baskets and walk out onto the course and slide a new basket into the hole and put the lock on it? All I'm saying is... if you are going to start charging money, I want to see some results. It's been two years, that's plenty of enough time to accumulate funds and get something of substance going. The really should only be working one year behind. $80,000 brought in during summer 2013, $80,000 of improvements completed in 2014. $80,000 brought in during summer 2014, I expect $80,000 of improvements done in 2015. Subtract out whatever you want for labor or miscellaneous costs.. but either way whoever is in charge sucks at planning or executing.

 

[BennettUA]

And yet they're still fishing for volunteers to do work. 80 bucks to play all the courses in Madison is a bit out of control, IMO.

So...

$80 gets you a season pass at a great 18 hole course

or

$88 gets you season permits to three very nice courses (Elver, Hiestand & Token Creek) and one decent (Capital Springs) course (81 total holes).

Both seem like good deals to me.

$80 gets you one round and a golf cart at most average golf courses.

I already said I'm not against P2P if things actually happen. I mean... how hard is it to put in an order for new baskets and some benches? Even if you buy $1,000 benches and $500 baskets... between the two courses that's only $36,000 for a bench on every hole at each course and $18,000 for new baskets on every hole at each course. That's only $54,000 of $160,000 that has been actually generated in the past two years. It's been TWO years. How hard is it to place an order for some benches and baskets and walk out onto the course and slide a new basket into the hole and put the lock on it? All I'm saying is... if you are going to start charging money, I want to see some results. It's been two years, that's plenty of enough time to accumulate funds and get something of substance going. The really should only be working one year behind. $80,000 brought in during summer 2013, $80,000 of improvements completed in 2014. $80,000 brought in during summer 2014, I expect $80,000 of improvements done in 2015. Subtract out whatever you want for labor or miscellaneous costs.. but either way whoever is in charge sucks at planning or executing.

If this really is the case and these numbers can be proven accurate, I'd understand the gripe. Even with labor costs, there should be something visibily different than just a few tree trimmings and grass clippings. But again, I'd like to see the numbers, not just guessing by what the tag pass number on someone's bag is, because a 2,000 tag might not mean 2,000 tags were sold.

 

[Stardoggy]

$80 gets you one round and a golf cart at most average golf courses.

Which is exactly why I don't "regular" golf.

Also, Elver and Heistand, while above average courses, aren't "great" courses by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Shuie]

So, it seems that most of the top 20 in Wisco is a pay to play with Zobel, Silver Creek, Big Eau Plaine, Grey Fox, Dretzka, Brown Deer, and Yulga being the exception. Guess its just the way disc golf is trending. I've been toying around with the idea of charging for my 9 hole course but in the long run will most likely be donations.