Maple Hill Open

[BgWvDave]

So why isn't that questionable boggy area roped off so the OB is defined more clearly? Ricky seems pretty upset about this deal. at least there isn't a spotters chair there, haha

 

[BgWvDave]

oh wow that was absolutely hilarious. Uli jumps off a rock to try to argue that McBeth is in bounds and then sinks a foot deep in mud. that is almost the funniest thing I have ever seen.

 

[tom12003]

Swampgate

 

[BgWvDave]

Swampgate

:clap::clap::clap:

 

[TheOtherBill]

We've always played casual water as casual, even if you have to throw from chin deep in it. Not sure why surrounded by casual water would be ruled any differently...

 

[JC17393]

Correct. arguably one of the hardest hole out there. 6 would be close in difficulty as well. but it still looks like a decently routine par...throw one straight, short downhill approach to the green, make the putt (I know, easier said than done )

Relative to par, I don't think there's a tougher hole on the course than 9. Six is also tough, but it can be reached for a deuce putt with a good clean drive (11 deuces through two rounds), certainly more easily than 9 can (1 deuce through two rounds).

Hole 6's fairway is more fraught with danger if you miss the line though. Being off the "deuce" line by a few inches could mean OB and at best a 4 whereas on hole 9 missing the "deuce" line by a few inches either puts you in the woods or short on the fairway but still in a position to recover for the 3.

 

[tom12003]

Better if there was a chair!

 

[JC17393]

So why isn't that questionable boggy area roped off so the OB is defined more clearly? Ricky seems pretty upset about this deal. at least there isn't a spotters chair there, haha

Judging from the video (which is sketchy), that boggy area is a spot where not many discs land. It may not be clearly marked because no one has ever landed there in order to make it an issue. Guaranteed it will be marked clearly tomorrow.

This situation is why the provisional rule exists.

We've always played casual water as casual, even if you have to throw from chin deep in it. Not sure why surrounded by casual water would be ruled any differently...

The question is where Paul should play from. If it's OB, he'd play from one lie (where ever he is determined to have last been in-bounds). If he's in-bounds and it is determined to be casual, he can take relief and play from a different lie. However, depending on where the OB line actually is could limit how much casual relief he's allowed to take since he can't take relief into an OB area.

 

[Pbmercil]

So why isn't that questionable boggy area roped off so the OB is defined more clearly? Ricky seems pretty upset about this deal. at least there isn't a spotters chair there, haha

Because "the swamp is OB" should be obvious enough without ropes.

I'm trying to figure out exactly how that area is worded in the caddy book. McBeth seemed pretty insistent that it was casual, but Rick and Uli were just as sure it was OB.

Also I can't believe it took them so long to play a freaking provisional

 

[tom12003]

Not that effects the score (provisional vs penalty) but how would that effect the throwing order on the next tee?

 

[BgWvDave]

We've always played casual water as casual, even if you have to throw from chin deep in it. Not sure why surrounded by casual water would be ruled any differently...

For me it is all about the orientation of the water and the fairway. Casual relief is first available lie within 5 meters directly back from your lie in line with the basket. so if going directly back 5 meters keeps you in water or better yet puts you in deeper water, then make it OB.

I think that bog should have been roped off to define the OB...I bet next year there is a rope there

 

[BgWvDave]

Because "the swamp is OB" should be obvious enough without ropes.

respectfully...obviously that was not the case. As we just had a 15 minute discussion with three of the top players in the sport

I'm trying to figure out exactly how that area is worded in the caddy book. McBeth seemed pretty insistent that it was casual, but Rick and Uli were just as sure it was OB.

Also I can't believe it took them so long to play a freaking provisional

incorrect. Uli was arguing the exact opposite...until he jumped knee deep in mud haha

 

[jvphobic]

Uli Checking the OB

Here is a quick video on how Uli checks if a disc is OB.
https://youtu.be/o-HLejovPZY

 

[Pbmercil]

respectfully...obviously that was not the case. As we just had a 15 minute discussion with three of the top players in the sport

That's the point I'm trying to make. In disc golf we have this ridiculous culture in tournament play at EVERY level that if you can find ANY slight grey area to try and argue an OB call then you argue it to the death. Though I can certainly appreciate the value of ropes, we don't need to rope EVERY OB area. But inevitably, any time there is a non roped OB area someone will land in it and use the fact that there isn't a rope to try and find any amount of wiggle room to justify an inbounds call.

I don't want to put too fine a point on it as I'm not 100% sure what the caddy book says, so its hard to know exactly what's up. Plus I'm at work watching and wasn't paying super close attention.

Does that LOOK like a swamp to you? Then its out of bounds weather its wet, dry, mostly muddy, or watery puddles of mud, none of that matters. It looked like a swamp to me.

Here's a thought:
If you're playing a course on a lake and the hole instructions say "Lake is OB", and you're drive lands clearly IN the lake, but there happens to be a small rock 20 feet out from shore that is just sticking out of the water enough to hold your disc above water, are you now inbounds? HOW DO YOU KNOW IF WE DON'T HAVE ANY ROPES!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

[keith johnson]

Here's a thought:
If you're playing a course on a lake and the hole instructions say "Lake is OB", and you're drive lands clearly IN the lake, but there happens to be a small rock 20 feet out from shore that is just sticking out of the water enough to hold your disc above water, are you now inbounds? HOW DO YOU KNOW IF WE DON'T HAVE ANY ROPES!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

You are NOT in bounds......
Because you are clearly surrounded by an OB lake.

 

[keith johnson]

It's a true NT. No age divisions, no ams, just Open and Women. Just the two divisions that count toward the NT standings. We need more of these.

For what it's worth, the Maple Hill Open in all its iterations (MSDGC, Vibram Open, MHO) has never offered a Masters division. They used to offer Grandmasters but got rid of it as the Gold course got longer and harder and ill-fitting for such a division.

Not ill fitting any more than 900 rated players playing it these days or having ladies play 5/6 shorter tees suited for their rating level...such a division........:wall::wall::wall:

I played in it 3 years in a row 2009 as Open (missing cash by 2 strokes) 2010 as GM (1st year eligible) in which I came in 2nd to World Champ Jim Myers, then 2011 as open as Steve realized he hated old people.
The course got EASIER from 2011 compared to 2010 (massive ice storm wiped out alot of trees causing some changes) and then later on it got to be the course it is now.

I've always supported Steve's ideas even though it kept me from competing there, and now that I've retired after Beaver State Fling in 2013....I'll just live vicariously through the Georgia guys that go every year.

Keith

 

[Pbmercil]

You are NOT in bounds......
Because you are clearly surrounded by an OB lake.

Exactly. So how was it not obvious that Paul was completely surrounded by an OB swamp?

 

[JC17393]

Exactly. So how was it not obvious that Paul was completely surrounded by an OB swamp?

Because the definition of swamp is by its very nature a grey area. Is it swamp if it's a touch spongy? Or is it swamp only when the mud is deep enough to swallow a leg up to the knee like it did with Uli? Water in a lake, on the other hand, is generally pretty obvious particularly if you're talking 20 feet out from the edge. Right on the edge of the lake...same grey area as the "swamp is OB".

Bottom line is natural boundaries like edge of the water/swamp are a poor way to demarcate OB regardless of the descriptions given in the caddy book. A hard line is always preferred because it leaves no grey area to argue. If there had been a rope line in or near that swamp area like Maple Hill has one every OB rock wall and variable water boundary on the course, there would have been no question at all what the status of the disc is.

The reason a player in Paul's position should argue if the status isn't clear cut should be obvious as well. What if the players saying "OB" are wrong? Why should he, or any player, take an unnecessary penalty if they may not deserve it. It's not petty or foolish to argue that point. I guarantee if it had been someone else who'd thrown into that exact spot, they'd be arguing that they were in-bounds just as vehemently as Paul was (and perhaps Paul would have been on the other side of the debate...who knows?). And I wouldn't blame them a bit.

In the end, they did the right thing by playing it both ways provisionally and letting Steve Dodge decide the ruling after the round. Regardless of the ruling Steve makes, if I know him and Dave (course super) at all, there will be a rope out there tomorrow morning before the first group tees off, if not tonight after the last group has finished.

 

[Pbmercil]

The reason a player in Paul's position should argue if the status isn't clear cut should be obvious as well. What if the players saying "OB" are wrong? Why should he, or any player, take an unnecessary penalty if they may not deserve it. It's not petty or foolish to argue that point. I guarantee if it had been someone else who'd thrown into that exact spot, they'd be arguing that they were in-bounds just as vehemently as Paul was (and perhaps Paul would have been on the other side of the debate...who knows?). And I wouldn't blame them a bit.

Again, I don't really want to turn this into #swampgate as I wasn't there so I don't know the exact scenario. I think its also possible that ricky was trying to argue that the swamp was actually water, and all water on the course is OB so therefore he was out. The point I'm trying to drive at is that ruling discs in or out shouldn't have anything to do with if it helps you or hurts you, it should be an objective decision, and your personal lose or gain has nothing to do with it.

Its the bolded part that bothers me. Flip the scenario around, put Rick's disc there and Paul says its in and Rick says its out. because we have a culture in our sport of trying to "get your strokes wherever you can", or try not to take any penalty strokes if you can argue your way out of it, as opposed to other sports that play from the spirit of the game, call their own violations on themselves, and things like that.

Technically, they did play it correctly. Played a provisional and let Steve make the call (he called it in BTW). But taking a provisional shouldn't take nearly that long, and you're personal reasons for gain or loss shouldn't have anything to do with how you objectively determine a lie.

 

[LADamon]

IMO they need to have an official at every hole. Probably not possible but it's the only fair way to do it.