Acorn Park, Roseville MN

[renewal dupe]

The plague of multitasking

At a rumored cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $100,000, the redesign of the disc golf course at Acorn Park attempts to overlay one disc golf course on top of another. While I'm not a disc golfer, it seems to me, the attempted overlay of a less challenging course on top of one more challenging serves no purpose, other than to make the course silly, confusing, and more prone to the hazards of flying projectiles.

The holes on the redesigned course have so-called "long" and "short" options, requiring the player to choose, for each hole, which of 2 concrete slab tees throw from and/or which of 2 metal basket holes to throw at. The disc golfers, dog walkers, runners, bicyclists, stroller pushers and other park users must then look out for discs flying off of and flying at multiple concrete slabs and/or metal baskets for each of the 18 holes.

Acorn Park has a large variety of uses and users, and disc golf and disc golfers are just one. It's a pretty tight fit squeezing one 18-hole course into the park. The attempt to fit 2 18-hole courses into the park, one on top of the other, seems ludicrous to me.

 

[Jenga54]

Being a non-disc golfer, thanks for taking the time to create a profile on the site! Curious how you found this webpage and this thread?
Being a non-disc golfer, it might seem a bit confusing how the course is laid out, however for the players it makes a lot of sense. Traditional golf has 4 or sometimes more tees on every hole, so two tee locations makes the course more available for all skill levels. It's the same with the pin locations, where some pin locations are easier and the pink are harder. So it's just 1 course, with different options to play it. Players aren't confused - typically they would decide "let's play the short tee to the pink baskets" or something like that.
Because it's a dense area, it's great that it can be a multi-use park. The redesign was done to make the multi-use safer for everyone - so that the users can see each other. I hope you'll find that disc golfers are courteous to walkers - they'll wave you on if you are walking by, and then continue on their way once you've passed.
There are only 18 holes, so it's only 1 course.
The game is great, inexpensive to start and a great joy for families to play together - I hope you give it a try! I play with my wife and kids - I throw from the long tee and the kid plays the shortest set up, short to short. Anyone can throw a frisbee, that's why it's such a great family sport.
By the numbers, I would bet that disc golfers make up the largest set of park users. I've sat in many many town hall meetings working on installing courses, and $100,000 is a relatively small number for a park budget to work on such a large piece of land! It costs a lot of money supporting the enjoyment of such a large metro area, and how great is it that this park gives such a wide range of opportunity to get outside!

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Also no need for rumors on the costs. Its public land and info in my experience to obtain the budgets for such projects done by municipalities or other public entities.

They did a lot of work to remove invasive buckthrown throughout the park which in my experience is extremely difficult.

 

[renewal dupe]

Who cares?

Again, I'm not a disc golfer, but from what I understand, the intent of the game is not to emulate or imitate traditional golfing or traditional golf courses. Why would anyone interested in disc golf be at all concerned about how many tees per hole traditional golf courses have? How exactly do 2 concrete slaps, placed very close to each other, make "the course more available for all skill levels?" So some kid playing along with his dad has to throw the disc 1 or 2 more times to get to the hole – who cares? Certainly not the kid throwing the disc. And if you want to build a kiddie course somewhere, build it someplace else. One 18-hole course at Acorn Park is more than enough.

Speaking of 18-hole courses, what exactly makes 18 the magic number for a disc golf course at Acorn Park? Why not 15, or 12, or 7, or whatever number is the best fit for the park? Shouldn't the course be made to fit the park rather altering the landscape to accommodate the course? In a park that has some obvious erosion and drainage issues, I would think the last thing you would want to be doing is laying extra concrete slabs for extra tees and installing extra concrete footings for extra metal baskets.

Concerning what I recall was a $100,000 budget for the disc golf course redesign, I suspect a lot more went into the installation of the concrete slabs and metal baskets, including buckets of cancer-linked glyphosate around every one of the many more than 36 holes and tees, than into removing buckthorn.

 

[Jenga54]

Not sure how much you're looking to learn and how much you're looking to vent - but both are fine - we do a lot of both here so welcome

As the name implies "Disc Golf" gets its heritage from the traditional game of golf. 18 holes and 9 holes are the most common course sizes, because before disc golf we played golf However I built a 12 hole course on a location where 12 fit best - too big for 9 and too small for 18. I put in a red tee for beginner and white tee for intermediate level play.
We call them holes when they are really baskets, tee boxes when we have no wooden tees, strokes when they are throws, we use a par 3,4,5 system for scoring, with as few throws being the goal. I think from the kid's perspective, a more suitable distance would be best, and they do care - I wouldn't make a 6 year old shoot from the black tee with a 250 yard water carry. It's the same idea here. Also, moving a tee box a few feet right or left can make the throw much more difficult if it changes the angle around a few trees.
Luckily for us, concrete slabs were used for tee pads as they don't erode like dirt tees, making them much safer throwing surfaces. The cost is well worth the safety. I suppose you could ask them how much roundup was used in the creation of the course. If it was down to an acceptable level, I hope you come out to play a round on the links

 

[AtomicDom]

Who told you that disc golf isn't imitating golf? It literally has golf in the name.

We may use different tools and apparatus to play our sport, but the objective is basically the same.

 

[renewal dupe]

the numbers

By the numbers, I would bet the disc golfers comprise a very small minority of the Roseville residents living near the park – folks who use the park regularly, often daily, and whose property taxes pay for the park and its upkeep.

I have never seen a disc golfer arrive or leave the park on foot or by bicycle. Worse yet, it's generally the case that each player comes and goes in his own vehicle. So if your counting cars and trucks, and the negative impact they bring to the park and surrounding neighborhood, I'll give the disc golfers the "largest set" award.

And I'm not buying the claim that more than one concrete slab and more than one metal basket is necessary or desirable for each of the 18 holes. From what I've observed, the "largest set" would be perfectly content playing with just one tee and one basket per hole.

As far as the heritage of the sport is concerned, I think if you go back far enough you'll find that early players of the game had zero interest in creating courses that looked anything like traditional golf courses. The disc golfers playing on the sand dunes in Oregon in the 1980s were not trying to imitate the game or the courses played by Arnie Palmer and Tiger Woods, but rather, they were trying to create a more environmentally-benign alternative to traditional golf.

 

[Pbmercil]

Multiple pin and pad placements ARE traditional in disc golf. It may not be strictly nessicary, but it is an extremely common design feature, and it DOES make the game more accessible to all skill levels. Disc golf's heritage is one of creating a new game for frisbee players, as far as I know in the the games history environmental concerns were not in the founders visions for the sport.

You are probably correct that many/most users of the disc golf course are not Roseville residents, players travel from all over the metro area to use the different courses in town

You are also probably correct in your estimation of how the budget was spent. Disc golf relies heavily on volunteer labor, so for the most part the hardware (teepads and baskets) represent the vast majority of the cost of a course.

 

[Craig639]

By the numbers, I would bet the disc golfers comprise a very small minority of the Roseville residents living near the park – folks who use the park regularly, often daily, and whose property taxes pay for the park and its upkeep.

I have never seen a disc golfer arrive or leave the park on foot or by bicycle. Worse yet, it's generally the case that each player comes and goes in his own vehicle. So if your counting cars and trucks, and the negative impact they bring to the park and surrounding neighborhood, I'll give the disc golfers the "largest set" award.

And I'm not buying the claim that more than one concrete slab and more than one metal basket is necessary or desirable for each of the 18 holes. From what I've observed, the "largest set" would be perfectly content playing with just one tee and one basket per hole.

As far as the heritage of the sport is concerned, I think if you go back far enough you'll find that early players of the game had zero interest in creating courses that looked anything like traditional golf courses. The disc golfers playing on the sand dunes in Oregon in the 1980s were not trying to imitate the game or the courses played by Arnie Palmer and Tiger Woods, but rather, they were trying to create a more environmentally-benign alternative to traditional golf.

Wow. Maybe do some research before spouting off because you sound like an arrogant ass. This park gets more people outside than any other park in your town. This is the priority of the park system, to get people outdoors. Sorry you don't want people from outside your community using the park. I take it you're either far-left NIMBY or far-right person counting every tax dollar...sorry to drag politics into this. Maybe I'm wrong and you just don't like people, especially if those people are having fun. Get over yourself.

 

[Jenga54]

Pretty short and fun read - http://www.pdga.com/history

I hope you play sometime, it's quite fun. If you need any equipment, I have plenty of backup discs you could have.

 

[DinosaurThunder]

I have never seen a disc golfer arrive or leave the park on foot or by bicycle. Worse yet, it's generally the case that each player comes and goes in his own vehicle. So if your counting cars and trucks, and the negative impact they bring to the park and surrounding neighborhood, I'll give the disc golfers the "largest set" award.

Do you go during the day throughout the summer? During my summer vacation (15 years ago now) I would ride my bike daily from Shoreview to play Acorn. I think you will find many kids doing the same throughout the week. Now that I have settled with my family in Maple grove I still like to play Acorn once a week for nostalgia. I drive the 25 minutes, play two rounds and then stop for lunch at one of Roseville's many local restaurants. I would think you would want people coming to areas of Roseville that are not the mall and helping out businesses. Especially now that many areas surrounding the park are fairly run down.

That park, along with central, are magnets for non-residents and do nothing but good for the city.

Also, to go off of Aim's response, buck thorn/tree clearing is the major cost within that "rumored" budget. Basket companies who sell to course designers/cities typically discount them heavily. Even if they bought without the discount it would only be about 7-8k for all 18 new baskets. Also the cost of a bag of concrete and the wood to frame in the pad is CHEAP.

Just my two cents.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Do you go during the day throughout the summer? During my summer vacation (15 years ago now) I would ride my bike daily from Shoreview to play Acorn. I think you will find many kids doing the same throughout the week. Now that I have settled with my family in Maple grove I still like to play Acorn once a week for nostalgia. I drive the 25 minutes, play two rounds and then stop for lunch at one of Roseville's many local restaurants. I would think you would want people coming to areas of Roseville that are not the mall and helping out businesses. Especially now that many areas surrounding the park are fairly run down.

That park, along with central, are magnets for non-residents and do nothing but good for the city.

Also, to go off of Aim's response, buck thorn/tree clearing is the major cost within that "rumored" budget. Basket companies who sell to course designers/cities typically discount them heavily. Even if they bought without the discount it would only be about 7-8k for all 18 new baskets. Also the cost of a bag of concrete and the wood to frame in the pad is CHEAP.

Just my two cents.

Not your 2 cents, the truth.

Labor and machines make costs go up exponentially given the job at hand. Doesn't sound like this person has ever hired out any dirt work let alone thick brush removal and razing. :doh: buckthrown is a very big problem as it will kill out all other native growing plants, trees, and shrubs while becoming nearly impentratble without machines due to how dense it can grow and the large thorns it produces (hence the name....) Sorry Mr. Roseville but you have many bigger fish to catch and fry up in that city vs little old acorn DG.

$100k is really nothing for improving a park compared to the overall budget which is allocated yearly: 2016's will not be completed until Dec but current year:

In September, the City Council approved a preliminary budget for tax-supported programs of $26,055,340. This represents an increase of $1,332,055 or 5.4 percent compared to the City's 2014 budget. To meet this budget goal, the Council approved a preliminary tax levy increase of 3.6 percent. The preliminary levy can be reduced, but not increased, before final adoption, and is now the maximum amount the City Council can raise the 2015 tax levy.

Any idea how much a new playground costs? opcorn: I left a visitor message also re: businesses which if you just stand ont he corner of rice and county rd C you can see the need for outside traffic. The locals certainly are not doing it justice like over off Snelling and Larp.

 

[renewal dupe]

too many tees and holes makes goofball design

Well, I can't say I'm flattered by being called an "arrogant ass," but considering the source, maybe I should be. I'm not sure sure what "research" Craig639 is referring to, but I'll stick to my assertion that one tee and one hole for each of the 18 holes at Acorn Park would have been more than enough. As was already mentioned earlier in this thread, the placement of the holes and tees on the redesigned course is not superb. You don't have to be a disc golfer or a rocket scientist or an arrogant ass to figure out that in a limited space, like Acorn Park, it's a lot easier to do 30 well-placed holes and tees on a 15-hole course than to do 50 or 60 holes and tees for an 18-hole course. As I stated earlier, the "long-short" configuration of the 18-hole course redesign is ludicrous.

 

[renewal dupe]

The neighborhood will do fine without your business.

And for those driving to Acorn Park from Maple Grove, save your time, money and effort. The neighborhood will do fine without your business.

 

[Jenga54]

I drive from albertville

I think it's pretty funny that you keep saying "I'm not a disc golfer, but it's pretty dumb the way you guys like to design courses"

Since you still can't understand how multiple tees and pins fit on one 18 hole course, I'll probably save my breath for other things. Feedback is great and I still hope you actually play, before discussing how ludicrous the course design is.

 

[Pbmercil]

Well, I can't say I'm flattered by being called an "arrogant ass," but considering the source, maybe I should be. I'm not sure sure what "research" Craig639 is referring to, but I'll stick to my assertion that one tee and one hole for each of the 18 holes at Acorn Park would have been more than enough. As was already mentioned earlier in this thread, the placement of the holes and tees on the redesigned course is not superb. You don't have to be a disc golfer or a rocket scientist or an arrogant ass to figure out that in a limited space, like Acorn Park, it's a lot easier to do 30 well-placed holes and tees on a 15-hole course than to do 50 or 60 holes and tees for an 18-hole course. As I stated earlier, the "long-short" configuration of the 18-hole course redesign is ludicrous.

I don't condone any name calling. This is the internet tho, and people will be like that.

What exactly were you hoping to accomplish by coming here? This is a message board comprised entirely of members of the disc golf community. Did you think we would take kindly to someone ragging on a very popular course? I understand you have some concerns, and I'm not going to try and downplay those concerns. But coming here to voice them is not a very good way to find a sympathetic ear. Its the polar opposite of preaching to the choir.

Perhaps a more constructive use of your time would be to contact your local city administrators, city councilmen, or parks and rec department. I'm sure they'd be happy to inform you why exactly they felt that redesigning the Acorn course was a good investment for the city. Because if THEY didn't feel that it was, then they could have left it as is or removed the course entirely. If your city didn't want disc golf in Acorn, disc golf wouldn't be in Acorn.

 

[Alobar]

Dear Sir or Madam:

I went to the Roseville, MN web site, and was able to find ample information on the Parks Renewal project, budget breakdowns, and PDFs of past minutes of meetings specifically about the Parks.

Despite not being a disc golfer, you are falling into a trap that most disc golfers fall into: Monday Morning QBing. It's very easy to complain after the work is complete or plans have been approved.

If you were so concerned about the future of your local parks, or the way your local government approved the plans, or any aspect of your local politic, then it is on you to have been proactive and gotten involved in the first place.

Any complaints you have about land use or the park system (including the DG course), would be better aimed at your local politicians. Unless your just trying to troll the local players or course designers who may or may not use this site...

"Politics is the art of controlling your own environment." - Hunter S. Thompson said that.

Oh, and if you don't like being called names, don't ever post an opinion on the internet. It escalates quickly behind these glowing screens.

 

[renewal dupe]

I understand

I think I understand very well how 50 or however many holes and tees (maybe you can provide the exact number) fit onto an 18-hole course at Acorn Park - not very well. Judging from the comments in this thread, it does not appear there are many disc golfers who have much praise for the redesigned course. At best, the $100,000 redesign is not much of an improvement; at worst, it's worse than it was before the $100,000 project.

 

[renewal dupe]

City of Roseville input

As for providing my 2cents worth re: Acorn Park and Roseville's $19M parks "renewal" project, been there-done that. There world is run by gangsters, and for better or worse, I don't have any Hunter Thompson substance for altering my environment.

 

[Alobar]

As for providing my 2cents worth re: Acorn Park and Roseville's $19M parks "renewal" project, been there-done that. There world is run by gangsters, and for better or worse, I don't have any Hunter Thompson substance for altering my environment.

FYI, Hunter covered politics throughout the late 60s and 70s and ran for Sheriff of Aspen in the late 1969, which is where that quote is drawn from.

I'm sorry you failed in your attempts to be heard by your local government, but since this is the internet, I doubt you even tried.

On the first page of the city budget, there is a line for Golf Course that says $107,000, but I assure you that is for Cedarholm golf course, not disc golf, if that's where you're getting your info.

Good luck with your grudge. The thing about America is that we all have opinions, but we all think only our opinions are right.