Disc Golf Pro Tour

[bhadella]

why should the pdga even care if these ADGT type events want to try and make it?

Also lol at people on bashing scheduling. Ever try and put togethet a date for even just a handful of people? Cant make everyone happy and **** like weather etc makes it even harder.

Wow...

The DGPT has two events (The Memorial and The Maple Hill Open) that are perennial NTs and events that all major pros will play. Not supporting a cohesive calendar between the three major tours (PDGA NT & Worlds, DGPT, WDGT) hurts everyone.

 

[corin_brown]

Everyone in disc golf should recognize this as a cash grab and nothing more.

Cash grab, #discgolfrich-style.

Cash grab? What cash? Lol.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

I dont really believe it is as simple as "not supporting a cohesive calendar" ... Maybe PDGA is that ignorant but doubtful. Seems like there is more to this but have no idea how scheduling is done in the first place.

 

[Streets]

Conspiracy theory: This was Dodge's endgame the whole season, to sever ties with the PDGA.

 

[Happablap]

There is one thing people are failing to mention...if these DGPT events aren't PDGA sanctioned, the touring pros will be able to dust off their Aerobie Epics and use them. Now that would be entertaining

 

[DiscLoser1]

The ABA helped make the NBA great...

The AFL helped make the NFL great...also the USFL...

Competion, disagreement was/is a good thing.

If the DGPT and DGWT can help grow the Pro side, maybe the PDGA can focus better on growing the Am side...like disc golf in school curriculms.

A lot of PDGA apologists on here for an organization that has its feet stuck in the mud.

 

[lyleoross]

It seems to me that Steve Dodge has done to the PDGA, exactly what he accuses them of doing to Bradly Williams. Multiple claims of malfeasance, followed by a punishment based on no information, except his hearsay. There are some differences though. The PDGAs actions on BW do them little good. It's a job that has to be done and a pretty thankless one. On the other hand, Steve gains a good bit from his action. Steve's claims are unsupported and unexamined, whereas the PDGAs are researched, documented, and have to pass checks and balances. Steve has carried out his charges and sentence in a public way, dropping them in an online podcast for dramatic effect, whereas the PDGA communicates privately to protect the accused and those impacted. Of course they communicate fully to the accused.

Steve is welcome to go his separate way on his own, but it works so much better if you can say the other guys were donkeys as you separate. It is fine that Steve feels the PDGA prioritizes their normal long term obligations over his and that he is separating because he wants to prioritize his events over the other events, NTs Majors and such, that the PDGA prioritizes, and that is what he might have said, instead of trying to drag the PDGA through the mud.

 

[SpikeHyzer]

Random thoughts....not entirely all related to each other.

I think the PDGA is making a big mistake by not partnering up with the DGPT/DGWT. I for one would like to see the PDGA acts as the governing body, but relinquish the tour part to be policed by Steve Dodge(DGPT) and/or maybe Jussi Meresmaa(DGWT). I have faith that these two could create a series of events that have more of a geographic lineage than what's currently out there. I see this only helping the travelling pro's that want to make a living out of this sport.

As for the disciplinary committee, I feel as though their scale for punishment is lacking transparency(as suggested by others). I do feel that they need to revamp this process to reduce down the duration of suspensions/probation and start to introduce fines on players(also suggested by others). Vetting out a scale for fines could be an interesting topic. Would it be based on tier of tournament? Based on percentage of winnings at a tournament(provided said player cashed)? Based on $100 increments for each occurrence requiring disciplinary actions? Repeat offender multiplier?

I really like the idea of a rotational set of tournaments in a region that are allowed to be used for the tour. For example, using the following map as boundaries for these tournaments, there are definitely at least a couple of tournaments per section that could be rotated with "Tour Status" and make up a 10 tournament tour(Ignore Puerto Rico and Virgin Islands on that map). Myself, I would probably combine regions 1, 2 and 3 and do a 7 tournament tour, with a finale TBD each year. So for example, in region 7, you have the KC Wide Open, Des Moines Challenge, Rumble and St. Louis Open. All four of these tournaments have the capabilities to play host as an NT. If one of the hosts isn't up to the challenge when it's their turn, then it goes to the next one in line.

 

[DiscFifty]

Ok so how does the DGPT determine who is a PRO!!!! without the PDGA ratings guide. Without hte PDGA's groundwork they are nothing. What's to keep 244 850 rated players from signing up for the Pro tour events?

Obviously they should give the top 10-20 players priority registration and from then on, bring on anyone and anybody who plays to play. That's the equivalent of getting money from the ams to pay for the pro cash.

 

[LateNite504fc]

I think this is a healthy split and probably an inevitable one. I realize this is a debatable point, but I don't think the PDGA was investing enough money and effort into growing the professional side of the sport. Its a conflicted organization -- the money comes from mostly amateur players and local pros who will never tour or treat disc golf as more than a hobby. But the growth of the sport over the last decade has made it possible for a few people to actually make a living as professional disc golfers; and there are many others on the cusp of that level who can supplement their income with other disc golf related endeavors to make it possible for them to live the dream. With more money and time spent on making the top level events even better in terms of professional look and feel and fan friendly media coverage, its not unreasonable to think those events could grow larger and generate more $. Since PDGA does not exist just to take the am $ and use it to grow the professional tour, it is not the right entity to lead the charge on creating a big money pro tour. The PDGA should be focused on being a Players Disc Golf Association -- which means it should curate the rules of the game, sanction am and lower level pro events for the vast majority of hobby players, generate grass roots interest to increase participation on local levels, and let someone else who is willing to get investors or invest their own money focus on growing a big $ pro tour. So in that sense the split is good.

But it did not have to be this ugly. It looks like the PDGA is trying to hold onto control over the top pro level events when it should be cooperating more with the DGPT and DGWT to smoothly transition out of that role. But Executive Directors of big organizations rarely think its a good idea for the organization to take a step away from controlling the action -- especially when doing so would take away some of the organization's justification for charging expensive dues to all of its members.

The DGPT and DGWT may fall on their faces, but they are trying to push the sport to greater heights and that is a good thing. I enjoy watching the coverage of both tour's events. If they end up making a ton of money, the players will get a share and the people who took the chance and invested their money and effort to build the tour deserve a profit also. But that $ is so far from a sure thing that I just don't see how anyone can call this a cash grab.

 

[oddjob]

Why would the pdga want to help competing tours?

 

[SonicGuy]

Cash grab, #discgolfrich-style.

Cash grab? What cash? Lol.

Exactly my point, Dodge is being stupid, no point in a cash grab when there is no real cash. Wait until your tour has legs and then move to kill the PDGA.

 

[ScottyLove]

There is one thing people are failing to mention...if these DGPT events aren't PDGA sanctioned, the touring pros will be able to dust off their Aerobie Epics and use them. Now that would be entertaining

Your not paying attention or didn't watch Smashboxx last night.

Steve has said they would use PDGA rules. He sees the PDGA as more a a keeping of rules and standards and supporting of amateur disc golf. His DGPT and Jussi's DGWT would be umbrella organizations working the the PDGA for touring pros.

This isn't an ADGT type of thing... the PDGA rules/standards will be used.

 

[dashiellx]

Why would the pdga want to help competing tours?

I think the point is the PDGA shouldn't be managing any tours at all.

 

[Jenga54]

I'm gonna have to leave the thread for a few days. I'll be back for sure, but I gotta get some work done...

 

[1978]

Obviously they should give the top 10-20 players priority registration and from then on, bring on anyone and anybody who plays to play. That's the equivalent of getting money from the ams to pay for the pro cash.

how do you determine top 10-20 pros with out the PDGA? Ratings, performance? Are they static? you get to be a 10-20 level pro by attending a Pro tour event, doesnt that just keep you in the top 10-20 and not let others break in? If you are one of the chosen 20, its an easy stay in the top 20 since others have to fight to get in and get points.

 

[brutalbrutus]

SO WHAT THIS EVENTUALLY WILL COME DOWN TO IS MY MONEY WILL NO LONGER BE GOING TO INFLATE THE PRO PURSE AT EVENTS I PLAY......




....sign me up...

 

[oddjob]

I think the point is the PDGA shouldn't be managing any tours at all.

that's fine. if Dodge, et al wants to start their own to show how it could better than have at it. my point is why should the pdga be obligated to help?

and regarding the BW incident that accelerated this, when was the last time anyone had an issue with one of the DC's decisions? Cam Todd?

back when they had the reason, more than half was failure to pay fees. there was a small set for drinking and pencil whipping. do we need to blow up the system due to a one off?

 

[bnbanbury]

how do you determine top 10-20 pros with out the PDGA? Ratings, performance? Are they static? you get to be a 10-20 level pro by attending a Pro tour event, doesnt that just keep you in the top 10-20 and not let others break in? If you are one of the chosen 20, its an easy stay in the top 20 since others have to fight to get in and get points.

DGPT has a rankings page based on pro tour performance that cover everyone that has cashed this year, i would imagine if they do invites they could do more than 10-20. Could even issue tour cards based on this year's results and then give others the chance to qualify.

To me this looks like it was Dodge's intention for it to always come to this. Partner with the PDGA for the first year to get a foot in the door and get established with the player base and then use that momentum to break away the following year.

 

[biscoe]

Tour Championship: Unsanctioned
SEPTEMBER 13, 2016

We have decided to unsanction the Tour Championship. It will not be a PDGA event.

This process of not sanctioning may need to continue into 2017 unless positive steps are taken toward working together. This is mostly meant as a shot across the bow of the PDGA.

Note: Discraft's Green Mountain Championship will remain sanctioned.
Note: Any players that would like a refund due to the unsanctioning of the Tour Championship will receive a full refund no questions asked.
Note: Non sanctioned DGPT events will forward money to a Pro Tour charity effort (instead of paying PDGA sanctioning fees).

Our goal is to work together. The PDGA should treat the Pro side of the sport fairly. Some may view this as divisive. We are sorry that it has come to this.

The Pro Tour is laying the foundation to be disc golf's PGA Tour in North America. The players and venues will have representation. The spectators will have live coverage, great stats, and an amazing Tour Championship (date and location to be announced in the coming months as details are finalized). The Pro Tour has tried, in good faith, to work with the PDGA on scheduling, co-branding events, and even discipline. The PDGA's actions have consistently demonstrated that there is no desire to work with the DGPT, which is viewed simply as a series of PDGA events.

We are taking this action to demonstrate that the DGPT is an independent organization. We have put our umbrella around a series of events and are growing the Pro side of the sport in ways the PDGA never has. We have announced the 2017 Pro Tour, which was scheduled with the PDGA and World Tour events in mind.

———-

Working Together

When the Pro Tour and World Tour were announced in the Fall of 2015, Jussi (DGWT), Steve (DGPT) and Brian (PDGA) made it clear that we would all work together regarding scheduling. An initial calendar was worked out between the DGWT and the DGPT and was shared with the PDGA.

Since then, the PDGA has

Scheduled events that directly conflicted with our original proposal
Caused the tour to cross America in one week
Stated paperwork was lost
Explained that dates were written down incorrectly
Apologized for schedules not being referenced
The PDGA never reached out to the DGPT with proposals on scheduling. It has become clear that "working together" means the PDGA will setup the schedule as it always does, PDGA Majors and NTs first, everyone else next. That is not what the DGPT envisioned when we said "work together".

————

No Communication, No Co-Branding

The Vibram Open, an NT for eight straight years, was not considered for NT status because it was a Pro Tour event. The PDGA never reached out.
Discraft's Green Mountain Championship, which had been told that it was in line to be the North East's NT in 2017, was not considered. When the GMC reached out to the PDGA, they claimed that they had "lost the paperwork" that the GMC had submitted. It was later found, but alas, it was too late. The GMC was a Pro Tour event and therefore was not considered for the NT.
The Ledgestone Open, presented by Discraft. The Ledgestone and Hambrick had been told that they would alternate being the NT for their region. 2015: Ledgestone. 2016: Hambrick. 2017? Neither. The Ledgestone was a Pro Tour event so it was not considered for the NT. The PDGA never reached out.
Is this a conspiracy? No. The PDGA staff was instructed to schedule no Pro Tour events as NTs by the PDGA Executive Director. The PDGA Executive Director serves at the pleasure of the Board of Directors (BoD). The BoD is either complicit in or directive of this instruction.

————

The BoD, the Summit, the brushoff.

The DGPT reached out to the PDGA to be a part of the Pro Tour/NT discussion, which was slated for four hours. The DGPT was told that the BoD would prefer to not hear from us nor have us involved in the conversation. This was when it became clear that the Pro Tour was, in the eyes of the PDGA and the BoD, not worthy of being involved in the discussion. Eyes wide open.

————

The final straw. Bradley Williams' 18 month suspension.

In no way does the DGPT condone the actions of Bradley Williams.

I (Steve Dodge) emailed the Disciplinary Committee the day after the Ledgestone, where Bradley's infraction occurred: "I want to be available to you all … and I want to work closely together and present a unified front when / if disciplinary actions are taken." I was never contacted. The PDGA removed a player from the Pro Tour without any inclusion of the DGPT in the process.

I did reach out to the Disciplinary Committee after the fact and it was explained to me that they were talking to me ONLY because I happened to be the TD of an upcoming event that the suspension would affect. As the Director of the Pro Tour, I would not have gotten my call answered. Once again pointing out, the PDGA does not consider the Pro Tour a worthy partner.

So we have one player (Bradley Williams) suspended and two players (Paul McBeth and Cam Todd) who are boycotting PDGA events due to the PDGA disciplinary process. The players have every right to have representation in the Disciplinary process and understand what types of actions warrant what types of punishment.

Being a PDGA event is hurting the DGPT Tour Championship.

————

Time for the split

In good conscience, knowing that the goals of the DGPT are to build a professional Pro Tour throughout North America, we cannot continue to pretend to work together with the PDGA. The PDGA has consistently failed to communicate, put roadblocks in our way, refused to have discussions, and has suspended Pro Tour players without consulting the Pro Tour or the players.

Today I have renewed my PDGA membership for 2017. The PDGA is our governing body and does a very good job of defining the rules of the game, creating ratings for events, and executing the PDGA Majors. These are the exact same things that the USGA does for golf. The USGA is a worthwhile and good organization. It does not run and govern the Pro side of the game, except for hosting the US Opens.

The Pro Tour's goal is to become the PGA Tour of disc golf in North America. The PDGA will continue to be the USGA of disc golf. Arguably, the PDGA never meaningfully supported the Pro side of the sport in the way the Pro Tour (and DGWT) does and will. It is not in the PDGA's DNA to do this. 98% of its members will never play at this level and it is a member organization.

It is time for the split to happen. And it starts this weekend.

———–

One Parting Thought

We would like to work with the PDGA on the Pro side of the sport as a respected partner. In order for this to happen, the BoD needs to direct PDGA HQ to work closely with the DGPT. If this Board is not up to the challenge and if you would like the PDGA and DGPT to work together for the betterment of the sport, then during the next BoD election cycle, the relationship with the DGPT should be a topic of discussion.

We would like to see the following actions taken:

Bylaws written stating that disciplinary action taken on an MPO or FPO player at a DGPT event will be left to the DGPT Disciplinary Process.
The Board of Directors issue a directive telling PDGA HQ to treat the DGPT and DGWT as equals in the scheduling process of MPO & FPO level events.
The DGPT and DGWT be invited to each Summit to present updates on progress and potential scheduling conflicts.
With these simple changes, we will be able to work together going forward and schedule 2018 in a way that is best for the players, the PDGA/DGPT/DGWT, and the spectators. The sport is growing. It is time for our governing body to do so too.

Lots of accusations, hearsay and demands here with possibly little fact involved.