Disc Golf Pro Tour

[lyleoross]

I for one, can understand Steve's frustration, but I would hope he knew when he started the DGPT that the PDGA has other masters to serve, whose agendas and vision for organized disc golf might be at odds with his own. Perhaps if he has the freedom to schedule where and when he pleases, and not have to deal with elements of the PDGA structure that he feels are holding him back, he can truly see if the DGPT can sink or swim on its own.

So the way I figure, disc golf gets a sustainable pro tour model out of this, or the latest episode of "we told you so" and a return to the drawing board. If Steve wants to take on that challenge, I wish him well.

I find it hard to believe that he'd schedule against the PDGA or that the TDs at events would go along with that. I'm curious to see what the TDs of his events are going to make of this.

 

[lyleoross]

So does this whole deal lend credence to the age old conspiracy that Innova owns the PDGA?

That raises an even better question, how are the other manufacturers going to feel about this per say? There were discussions years ago about Innova running the whole show that came to nothing. Purely gossip. But now you have a producer trying to grab a piece of the show with their own disciplinary process and other rules and structures. How will that sit with Discraft at Ledgestone etc.?

 

[stratedge]

I think Dodge is working more towards the ADGT model....Bankruptcy. If I were the PDGA I would sue them every time a reference to "PDGA" rules was used by Dodge or any of his employees....

I mean, this. This is no joke, there would be a lot of work involved in replacing all the PDGA does.

The DGPT gets huge value from the PDGA and has massive dependencies on all the nuts and bolts of the sport it provides. Whether or not Dodge's gripes with the PDGA are legit, you can't go into a relationship with a large organization like the PDGA and expect to come out 100% satisfied in year 1. It's always going to be about compromise and it's going to take time to build the relationship. Professional business people know these things, experience teaches them.

Even if all the other gripes with the PDGA are legit, the Williams discipline is most definitely not a hill to die on, and not the straw that breaks the camels back. Action plans are measured and in this situation are going to evaluate the relationship with the PDGA at the end of the season, negotiate, and modify next seasons DGPT. Un-sanctioning an event less than a week prior? Calm down. There's no way to pretend that's a level headed and carefully considered action plan, it screams knee jerk emotion. Like McBeth's protest, DGPT will be looking to pack pedal from this hastily taken position pretty soon when they realize what they're doing to themselves.

My first question at the tourney would be, "So what are the rules? Besides Bradely Williams accountability for his actions, what else is being thrown out this weekend?"

 

[VictorB]

So does this whole deal lend credence to the age old conspiracy that Innova owns the PDGA?

If innova ran the pdga, would they have suspended one of their top pros in the first place? Or is it all just a cover up? Hold on, I need my tin foil hat #pdgaconspiracy

 

[scarpfish]

Even if all the other gripes with the PDGA are legit, the Williams discipline is most definitely not a hill to die on, and not the straw that breaks the camels back. Action plans are measured and in this situation are going to evaluate the relationship with the PDGA at the end of the season, negotiate, and modify next seasons DGPT. Un-sanctioning an event less than a week prior? Calm down. There's no way to pretend that's a level headed and carefully considered action plan, it screams knee jerk emotion. Like McBeth's protest, DGPT will be looking to pack pedal from this hastily taken position pretty soon when they realize what they're doing to themselves.

Like I and others here have suggested, I don't think there was anything reactionary about this. It was orchestrated from the get go, and the BW incident (which may have very well been part of the scheme) was just the trigger they needed to make the PDGA look like they were the bad guys. Any notion that they were going to work with the PDGA was largely a smoke screen for John Q. Public. Had they just decided at the start of this year to go non-sanctioned to begin with, they'd have come across looking like another ADGT.

 

[DavidSauls]

I for one, can understand Steve's frustration, but I would hope he knew when he started the DGPT that the PDGA has other masters to serve, whose agendas and vision for organized disc golf might be at odds with his own. Perhaps if he has the freedom to schedule where and when he pleases, and not have to deal with elements of the PDGA structure that he feels are holding him back, he can truly see if the DGPT can sink or swim on its own.

So the way I figure, disc golf gets a sustainable pro tour model out of this, or the latest episode of "we told you so" and a return to the drawing board. If Steve wants to take on that challenge, I wish him well.

The main masters the PDGA tries to serve is Everyone. They try to be everything to all people---a professional tour and world championships and a network of thousand of local events, and sanctioned league play, and a resource for the broader disc golf world.

They've been trying to make the National Tour work for years now; with results that might be described as modest, or marginal. It's not surprising that when new entities came along with their own Pro Tours, the PDGA worked with them---to whatever degree---but didn't abandon the entire project to these newcomers. There's been a lot of effort invested by the PDGA in the NT, and no guarantee that the new tours would last or succeed.

In the meantime, I applaud Steve and Jussi for making the effort---certainly a bigger effort than I've ever made, and most of us in these forums.

 

[rd.bittle]

Tru-dat

 

[GoldeyeGolf]

I've only been following disc golf for a short amount of time, but I came to the conclusion early on that Innova controlled the PDGA. Innova probably makes more money from this sport than all the other companies combined, and are happy to maintain the status quo. Given that, it's hard to explain some of the recent events. I wish the DGPT luck, but I really don't see enough money out there to make it viable long term. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

[1978]

I've only been following disc golf for a short amount of time, but I came to the conclusion early on that Innova controlled the PDGA. Innova probably makes more money from this sport than all the other companies combined, and are happy to maintain the status quo. Given that, it's hard to explain some of the recent events. I wish the DGPT luck, but I really don't see enough money out there to make it viable long term. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Especially since the PDGA has a huge network of relationships with park, and sporting conventions across the country. DGPT has to come up with sponsorship with no history, unless they steal the history of the PDGA growth and use it as their own.

 

[JeremyKShort]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[loki the trickster]

My first question at the tourney would be, "So what are the rules? Besides Bradely Williams accountability for his actions, what else is being thrown out this weekend?"

I feel this is the question that needs answered far more then pdga vs BW vs Paul mcbeth. Can players drink now while playing what about smoke green stuff? What about the disc weights? i mean this is non pdga play.

 

[stratedge]

Like I and others here have suggested, I don't think there was anything reactionary about this. It was orchestrated from the get go, and the BW incident (which may have very well been part of the scheme) was just the trigger they needed to make the PDGA look like they were the bad guys. Any notion that they were going to work with the PDGA was largely a smoke screen for John Q. Public. Had they just decided at the start of this year to go non-sanctioned to begin with, they'd have come across looking like another ADGT.

That's conjecture and it's ultimately moot. What we can focus on is the more quantifiable: how it's actually coming across and what they're accomplishing. Me? I'm seeing shades of the ADGT now, and what we'll find out slowly over time is whether the PDGA capitulates to some degree, or takes offense to this and the DGPT/PDGA relationship suffers.

I don't see any reason for the PDGA to capitulate. They want the tours to prosper, clearly, but I bet they don't want have to deal with this kind of public drama and power struggle as it's no good for anyone. Dodge drags the DGWT into this in the DGPT press release, but I wouldn't presume Jussi to be of the same mind until he speaks for himself and the DGWT.

Very much plausible, the DGWT could benefit here by defaulting to the preferred partner tour of the PDGA. I could see a scenario where next years calendar opens with the PDGA and DGWT scheduling all their major events in sync, and then the DGPT is left to it's own devices to try to plan it's schedule around that in a manner that draws players... or go head to head, a VERY risky venture.

 

[lyleoross]

One interesting point about this is that Steve dropped the events that didn't meet his standards. Kind of what started him off being mad at the PDGA in the first place, that he didn't necessarily like their standards. More to the point, the leash for dropping events is going to be short. You work through too many tournaments and they aren't likely to come back.

I think Steve is sharp as hell, but he's bitten off a fairly large chunk. The Pro Tour has been a great addition this year; I wonder if some patience and negotiation wouldn't have eventually brought both sides together.

 

[biscoe]

unless they steal the history of the PDGA growth and use it as their own.

I'm shocked. How could you even consider such a thing?


of course that's what they'll do

 

[lyleoross]

Like I and others here have suggested, I don't think there was anything reactionary about this. It was orchestrated from the get go, and the BW incident (which may have very well been part of the scheme) was just the trigger they needed to make the PDGA look like they were the bad guys. Any notion that they were going to work with the PDGA was largely a smoke screen for John Q. Public. Had they just decided at the start of this year to go non-sanctioned to begin with, they'd have come across looking like another ADGT.

I wouldn't disagree that Steve had the notion of some independence early on, but the BW involvement belongs on the Conspiracies thread. It is a convenient excuse yes, but without it, Steve would have found another excuse. As you've said, it was just a good way to make the PDGA look bad on his way out the door.

 

[GoldeyeGolf]

That's conjecture and it's ultimately moot. What we can focus on is the more quantifiable: how it's actually coming across and what they're accomplishing. Me? I'm seeing shades of the ADGT now, and what we'll find out slowly over time is whether the PDGA capitulates to some degree, or takes offense to this and the DGPT/PDGA relationship suffers.

I don't see any reason for the PDGA to capitulate. They want the tours to prosper, clearly, but I bet they don't want have to deal with this kind of public drama and power struggle as it's no good for anyone. Dodge drags the DGWT into this in the DGPT press release, but I wouldn't presume Jussi to be of the same mind until he speaks for himself and the DGWT.

Very much plausible, the DGWT could benefit here by defaulting to the preferred partner tour of the PDGA. I could see a scenario where next years calendar opens with the PDGA and DGWT scheduling all their major events in sync, and then the DGPT is left to it's own devices to try to plan it's schedule around that in a manner that draws players... or go head to head, a VERY risky venture.

I expect the DGWT to work with the PDGA to try to undermine the DGPT both overtly and covertly.

 

[VictorB]

I think what's getting lost in all of this is the people that actually run the tournaments.

Will they be happy at all if the sanctioning for their pre-partnered events is pulled? But they will still have to enforce the pdga rules all the same.

I wonder if all of the TDs for each individual event even knew this was coming. Sure it hasn't been confirmed for next year, but I've seen this road traveled before in powerlifting - a very fractured sport with far too many federations running their own events 'for the benefit of their lifters'

 

[lyleoross]

I expect the DGWT to work with the PDGA to try to undermine the DGPT both overtly and covertly.

They don't have to do anything covert or overt. If I recall, the PDGA laid out ground rules for a PDGA backed Pro Tour. They were willing to give it to Steve, but he didn't have all the components. The big one I remember was the money, but I only loosely read the material. If the DGWT fits their structure, like any NT or Major, then they would grant it. That then puts DGPT head to head with a tour based on bigger events, or at least better known ones. The question becomes does his structure make it easier for big events, please see the Memorial, to go with him or with the PDGA sanctioned version? I think that is his target. There have always been complaints about the requirements and selection process to become an NT.

Does anyone think Steve notified his Tour TDs for next year about his approach to this situation? Just curious.

 

[JC17393]

My thinking all along with the World Tour and the Pro Tour is that they were no different than any other regional/state "tour" or "series" that has (co-)existed with the PDGA for years. From the PDGA point of view, how are those two tours fundamentally different than a pick-your-state series? I don't recall the PDGA allowing directors of any random state series to have a seat at the table and a voice in determining scheduling. So from that perspective, the demands of Steve or Jussi to be given that privilege seems presumptuous at best.

I told Steve this in a conversation last year just after he'd announced the DGPT. I told him what I imagined his tour would do in the first few years is unite an assortment of PDGA events of varying sanction (NTs and A-tiers as it turned out) and make them a cohesive unit of similar events that would slowly and gradually expand to a TOUR run efficiently and successfully enough to rival or surpass anything that the PDGA does with the current NT. And at that point, the PDGA folks would likely disband the NT all together in favor of letting the DGPT or the DGWT or perhaps a combination of the two take the reigns of servicing the elite level of pro competition. Steve seems to be more interested in forcing such an outcome rather than let it come organically.

Seems to me the best form of compromise in the short-term is for the DGPT to sanction every one of their events as a B-tier. They'd be able to offer the ratings and points that many players will want, but also have the freedom to not have to have their dates approved to fit into any sort of PDGA dictated schedule like Majors, NTs, and A-tiers must. Make the DGPT events just as big and prestigious as ever, with far less PDGA "interference" and run with it. In five years, if the growth happens the way Steve seems to envision it, then the power play to push the PDGA out of the elite level event game (i.e. the NT) would have a bit more oomph. This all seems a bit premature and perhaps motivated by bruised egos in not being given the authority they think they deserve but haven't really earned.

 

[ScottyLove]

What I'm worried about is The Memorial is slated to be the first stop on the DGPT next year.

It's usually an NT for pros and A-Tier for ams and I was planning on playing in it for the huge points that come along with placing well in it usually. I have points obelisk to win in 2017.

If The Memorial all of a sudden becomes non-sanctioned, well then I may have to cancel my travel plans. I mean this is all about me you know!