Homeowners near course demand removal of hole...

[BCDan]

So, a couple local homeowners bordering our local course are upset about hole #5 being too close. I've already moved it once, and so it's now 100+ feet away from any fence line.

Here is youtube video of hole #5 and a map.
https://youtu.be/IKwV3TEDoSU?t=1m28s



Allegedly the homeowners are upset about people throwing their discs in their yards, but in 200 games playing , I've never seen anybody throw into a yard for hole #4. For Hole #5, under old design when basket was 65 feet away, I did see it happen a couple times.

I think the real reason is, they feel like they owned the park and never saw anyone they .didn't know near their fence line. In fact, they told me multiple times, they bought their houses by the park because they never expected it to actually be utilized by the general public.

I took hole #5 basket out until I can get signage, or come up with a solution, just to show the city that we respect concerns, and will evaluate options.

I've thought about putting the basket back, but adding a MANDO post 80 feet from the fence line and/or an OB line 30 feet from their fence line to further dissuade shots anywhere near the fence line. That would be considered due diligence I believe.

 

[DavidSauls]

I can't watch the video, but looking at the map, I'm on the homeowners' side.

A mando has limited effect. Players aren't obligated to obey it, and even when they do, bad throws that miss the mando continue to fly in the unwanted direction.

If a course is open to the public, there are going to be some players making simply awful throws, and a few players who will feel entitled to retrieving their discs, no matter where they go.

Regardless of the homeowners' motivations---or, perhaps, mixed motivations---you need to make it almost impossible for discs to land in their yards. They may be unreasonably possessive of the park, but they're not of their own property.

 

[JC17393]

I'd recommend finding out if there are any city officials/employees (council member, committee member, parks dept, etc) who would be willing to come to the park on a busy day and observe the hole for a couple hours, just to observe how it is played and how frequently or how close discs come near the neighboring yards. Basically let them make their observations and form their own conclusions about whether the homeowners have a legitimate case or they're just making things up because they don't want traffic in that part of the park.

The mando and/or OB is a nice gesture that will look good to the city and all, but I think we all know that many players will ignore those things if it doesn't suit them (or if they're hackers who don't know the rules anyway). So in the long run, they're not going to be much of a solution if players are truly throwing close to or into the neighbors' yards.

Maybe the best solution is for the park to build a privacy fence on the property line...something that can block errant shots, dissuade anyone from climbing over, and will also keep players out of view of these folks trying to enjoy their home and yard. Or maybe a tall hedge row?

 

[Reniger]

While I agree the homeowners may be overzealous in their voiced concern, I can also see their issue. Plenty of our local courses are close to homes and other property and I've had a few run-ins with annoyed neighbors. Including one with a guy at a newly planted course sporting a shot gun "protecting his land from all the trespassers." I kindly and respectfully thanked him for letting me know it was private property and said I would inform everyone I could and suggested he post signs for private property. This was just a tree-line behind a small creek. No implication that it wasn't part of the already heavily wooded park.

Anyway, David is right. You cannot protect from errant throws, high winds pushing discs over, or people then trespassing to retrieve their discs. The video looks like there's plenty of room to compensate, but we've all had days where we release too early or too high and discs wind up where we'd never expect them. From your map, it looks like there may be room for a hole between 1 and 2, over the creek. However, that would likely interfere with 2's fairway. Hard to tell distances from that map. Even moving 5's teepad right next to 3's. It'd make for a very short hole, but it keeps people further from the housing.

TL;DR - If we were all pros, not a big deal. But there's no protection from errant throws. Best to avoid the possible confrontations. My 2¢

 

[filobedo]

Be proactive and have a discussion with a member of the HOA for a compromise or ask to visit an HOA meeting if allowable. It should not be difficult to find out when they have meetings if you ask some one other than the pissed off neighbors. I learned after being on our HOA BOD that sometimes committees deal with ridiculous requests and tend to agree with the level headed party and compromise. The craziest example for me was when a homeowner came to the open forum part of HOA meeting and wanted us to not allow his next door neighbors children to play basketball in front of their home during certain hours of the day because he liked to sit on his porch and read. Immediately it popped into everyone's mind that the children were playing late in the evening. The guy then was asked what time this was going on and he replied between 3pm and 6pm. Immediately the HOA members thought this was a joke but this guy was serious. If any of the neighbors or their children play you should have a case to keep this and possibly expand the course. Also think about a disc golf clinic for the neighborhood with a few players instructing and giving each attendee a player to teach them the sport but make sure it is well organized. Communication is key to solve problems.

 

[mark996]

Fast growing, closely placed cedar trees. We used them for a property line before the city bought the adjacent property, they catch discs extremely well. If they're a part of an HOA, they'll likely bitch about blocking views, or about any other numerous things for the sake of bitching...but hopefully not. Wooden privacy fence may help too...looks like most of the homes there have chain link fences in the back yard, if the city came in and put up a fence just off the homes fence line, it may help keep people from at least going in to their yards to get discs.

They have a right to complain about discs/people getting in to their yard...and the city/golfers need to do everything they can to prevent that. With homeowners in the area, its best to be as civil as possible and come up with a timely resolution to the problem. One or two holes creating an issue may turn in to a bigger problem for the other holes if the city steps in and does something without conferring with course designers/local golfers.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'd recommend finding out if there are any city officials/employees (council member, committee member, parks dept, etc) who would be willing to come to the park on a busy day and observe the hole for a couple hours, just to observe how it is played and how frequently or how close discs come near the neighboring yards. Basically let them make their observations and form their own conclusions about whether the homeowners have a legitimate case or they're just making things up because they don't want traffic in that part of the park.

The weakness here is that it could be only 1 disc a week. If I were a homeowner, that might be enough to bother me up. But a few hours of monitoring may not see that one disc.

 

[TimSyl]

How about moving the #5 tee, play to the #6 basket, and turn the 12 hole course into an 11 hole course?????

 

[Gblambert]

Remove hole #5, move the hole #6 tee pad to the right, make a new hole that throws from the #7 tee pad across the creek to a basket located at the bottom of the mowed area, then reverse the tee and basket locations on hole #10.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

I can't watch the video, but looking at the map, I'm on the homeowners' side.

A mando has limited effect. Players aren't obligated to obey it, and even when they do, bad throws that miss the mando continue to fly in the unwanted direction.

If a course is open to the public, there are going to be some players making simply awful throws, and a few players who will feel entitled to retrieving their discs, no matter where they go.

Regardless of the homeowners' motivations---or, perhaps, mixed motivations---you need to make it almost impossible for discs to land in their yards. They may be unreasonably possessive of the park, but they're not of their own property.

Yep.

 

[eric40817]

In fact, they told me multiple times, they bought their houses by the park because they never expected it to actually be utilized by the general public.

I took hole #5 basket out until I can get signage, or come up with a solution, just to show the city that we respect concerns, and will evaluate options.

I've thought about putting the basket back, but adding a MANDO post 80 feet from the fence line and/or an OB line 30 feet from their fence line to further dissuade shots anywhere near the fence line. That would be considered due diligence I believe.

As to the bolded - thats their own damn stupidity. Buy a house, near a park, because you dont think anyone will use it... :clap: thats a special kind of stupid isnt it

As to the rest quoted, good thinking, and good on you for try to keep disc golf seen positively by the public. I think the mando idea is great. How about a fundraiser tournament to help these people buy a giant net to put up?! lol

 

[DavidSauls]

How about a fundraiser tournament to help these people buy a giant net to put up?! lol

It would have to be a HUGE net.

But it would give the additional satisfaction of diminishing their park view.

It's hard to know for sure to what degree their complaints are disc golfers being there, or discs coming into their yards. The former is certainly possible, even common, and often infuriating---neighbors who claim some sort of ownership of the public park. But the latter gives them ammunition. Make sure there no discs in their yards, then fight the rest on principle.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I think you pretty much everything you need to hear has been said. I'll just add my two cents worth.

Fast growing, closely placed cedar trees.

This would be pretty costly, take a while no matter how fast the trees grow, and still wouldn't be that effective at keeping newb hyzers, early releases, wind blown discs, or overly flippy LHBH and RHFH shots out of their yards.

How about a fundraiser tournament to help these people buy a giant net to put up?! lol

I suppose this would work sooner and better (and probably cost less) than trees, but I really can't fathom it happening.

The high road suggestions of trying to attend an HOA meeting and working intelligently with the local Parks dept seem to make the most sense. If ultimately you need to redesign or eliminate the hole, don't think of it as they won. Think of it as we won because you wouldn't want to get a course pulled for something that was really quite avoidable.

 

[markmcc]

I have played a couple of neighborhood courses where you wouldn't think anyone would put a disc over a fence, and yet they manage to do it. And not just noobs. Some of the really big-armed guys will get one way out there only to see it drift a little more than they expected.

What I've seen next is what bothers me most. It is that weird sense that the player has just GOT to retrieve their favorite $15 piece of plastic. So they peek over the 6' wooden fence, make sure there isn't a dog, and then hop over "really quick" to grab the disc and scramble back over. If I were a homeowner (or even a neighbor) and saw some dude coming over my fence without permission to grab a disc, I'd be way past annoyed. So I can understand the concern here and hope that you can modify the course to address the issue.

 

[BCDan]

All good ideas ! For now, I have people throwing to and sharing basket #2 from slightly adjusted teepad #5.. though now players are in a fire zone there.

Yes, OB or mando's don't stop aerobie ring hackers.. but signs and rules would be for perception - to show I am doing what I can to make the course better for disc golf. If a park user has an aerobie ring, they are not playing disc golf.

Maybe best idea is to remove one hole down in the bowl, and convert the practice basket to new hole #12. I'll need trees to make 12 interesting .

Interesting 2 for 1 for appealing to neighbours might be the removing teepad #6 and make that #6 basket new #5, and make teepad for it back down and to the right in the field...this endangers hole #2 throwers yet again and makes hole longer than i want though.

There is NO HOA...so that is good. The city is on my side pretty much whatever I do... but I don't want a battle with homeowners regardless.

I am 90 percent sure we had vandalism to teepad 5&6 and 3 of our baskets by a homeowners indirect doing... Yes, they are being dinks... but what can you do ....except install a camera perhaps.

2 of the homeowners are making it difficult, they don't want a net, trees, or to make their fence taller .... I asked the one homeowner if they could just throw discs back and/or make fence higher, that would reduce people going into his yard for a disc...but he refused, he has a short fence too.

Tresspassing is wrong, but people by the baseball diamond have 8ft high privacy fences for a reason.... good fences keep good neighbours.

Unfortunately they want to be neighbours with the park, but not have the park be neighbours with them. They essentially want a 2 way mirror of a property line.

Some of these owners want 3 foot high chain link fences and nobody to have any reason to look, or come close to their yard... they want to look into the park while having a bonfire, but not have anyone look at their direction... essentially they seem like classists.

They don't even want teepads near their fence, even if the hole is shooting away from their property, like hole 6. The city did come out, and said it was unreasonable/invalid of the homeowner to be upset, considering there is a sidewalk 3 yards away from his fence line too.

He has no more rights over people walking on the sidewalk, as he does people walking behind his backyard in the park.


Regarding reversing hole 10, and making new hole 9 behind it, yes that is the dream , i need a bridge though - $10,000 .

There is a hole going over the creek for #2 and #7... those are pro holes. Each hole has 2 teepads...but 90 percent shoot from short tees.


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[eric40817]

It would have to be a HUGE net.

But it would give the additional satisfaction of diminishing their park view.

It's hard to know for sure to what degree their complaints are disc golfers being there, or discs coming into their yards. The former is certainly possible, even common, and often infuriating---neighbors who claim some sort of ownership of the public park. But the latter gives them ammunition. Make sure there no discs in their yards, then fight the rest on principle.

I think you pretty much everything you need to hear has been said. I'll just add my two cents worth.

This would be pretty costly, take a while no matter how fast the trees grow, and still wouldn't be that effective at keeping newb hyzers, early releases, wind blown discs, or overly flippy LHBH and RHFH shots out of their yards.


I suppose this would work sooner and better (and probably cost less) than trees, but I really can't fathom it happening.

The high road suggestions of trying to attend an HOA meeting and working intelligently with the local Parks dept seem to make the most sense. If ultimately you need to redesign or eliminate the hole, don't think of it as they won. Think of it as we won because you wouldn't want to get a course pulled for something that was really quite avoidable.

Only a very small part of me was being serious about the net.

Did these people buy the house after the course was installed? Did they know there was a course there prior to buying? If so, and if they're complaining because there are people there, then tough cookies I say. They shouldnt have bought the house next to a park. If they're complaining because of discs, thats valid but they need to try to understand the fact that it is a definite possibility that it will keep happening unless either they put up some sort of barricade - net, trees, etc., or (and maybe the more appropriate) like already mentioned, explore ways to alter the hole layout to rule out stray discs flying in their yard. That would help them, and the image of the sport in the long haul.

 

[BCDan]

Only a very small part of me was being serious about the net.

Did these people buy the house after the course was installed? Did they know there was a course there prior to buying? If so, and if they're complaining because there are people there, then tough cookies I say. They shouldnt have bought the house next to a park. If they're complaining because of discs, thats valid but they need to try to understand the fact that it is a definite possibility that it will keep happening unless either they put up some sort of barricade - net, trees, etc., or (and maybe the more appropriate) like already mentioned, explore ways to alter the hole layout to rule out stray discs flying in their yard. That would help them, and the image of the sport in the long haul.

They don't want taller fences, nets, trees, or anything near their backyard.... which means I'll need trees in interior of course...All I need is about 6 trees and I could just slightly adjust 2,3,4,5,6 .. that would be fun and appease homeowners too.

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[@iDiscGolf]

I'd recommend finding out if there are any city officials/employees (council member, committee member, parks dept, etc) who would be willing to come to the park on a busy day and observe the hole for a couple hours, just to observe how it is played and how frequently or how close discs come near the neighboring yards. Basically let them make their observations and form their own conclusions about whether the homeowners have a legitimate case or they're just making things up because they don't want traffic in that part of the park.

Or better yet let that city official play the hole, simulating a real life no0b, and see where the disc hyzers out? Wait, scratch that, don't do that... :|

Also, what about lhbh or rhfh throws (bad ones)?

 

[1978]

So, a couple local homeowners bordering our local course are upset about hole #5 being too close. I've already moved it once, and so it's now 100+ feet away from any fence line.

Here is youtube video of hole #5 and a map.
https://youtu.be/IKwV3TEDoSU?t=1m28s



Allegedly the homeowners are upset about people throwing their discs in their yards, but in 200 games playing , I've never seen anybody throw into a yard for hole #4. For Hole #5, under old design when basket was 65 feet away, I did see it happen a couple times.

I think the real reason is, they feel like they owned the park and never saw anyone they .didn't know near their fence line. In fact, they told me multiple times, they bought their houses by the park because they never expected it to actually be utilized by the general public.

I took hole #5 basket out until I can get signage, or come up with a solution, just to show the city that we respect concerns, and will evaluate options.

I've thought about putting the basket back, but adding a MANDO post 80 feet from the fence line and/or an OB line 30 feet from their fence line to further dissuade shots anywhere near the fence line. That would be considered due diligence I believe.

Home owners dont understand Mando's, most players dont, and mandos never stop a disc from traveling poorly, unless you literally hit the sign.

 

[1978]

All this and people actually pay MORE money to be located along the fairways of ball golf courses, all the while their homeowners association not allowing netting or fencing.