[Help] Another Workhorse Fairway Driver Thread

[theskulls]

My 2 cents is the sidewinder you mentioned. I always carry at least one in my bag but usually two, a lighter champion and a heavy star. The champion I can consistently get a nice S curve when I need it and the star will stay straight for me and is easy to anny if I want. When I jog a course for a quick round & only carry 2-3 discs, the sidewinder is always one of them as it just goes straight. Roadrunners & Katanas are good as well but they'll usually fade right for me.

Since I've relied on them so much, for the last six weeks I played without them to see if I could find a replacement and nothing compared to them for stability/predictability.

 

[aphilso1]

It bugs me a little when someone solicits feedback on this forum, and then doesn't follow up and explain how they used that feedback. So I will try to give periodic updates on my search. Here's how I'd rack and stack the recommendations thus far.

Tier 1 (will field test)
1. TL/TL3 – A buddy bags these, and the plan is to meet up and throw them today. Two downsides: Innova doesn't run them in Pro plastic, and current inventory is low across all plastics (but I assume that in normal times there are plenty of these discs floating around). However, I do see that there are some 158g-160g Tour Series TL3s available, so perhaps one of those could work as the 'understable TL' to give time to start beating in a heavier one.
2. Pipeline – PDGA approved specs are nearly identical to my Stags, and I have a heavy SP and light PL on order that should in theory give a fair amount of stability separation. Also, inventory is surprisingly high (but perhaps they just had a recent run and this isn't normal?). Downside: I was really hoping to switch to a more popular mold, so that I don't run into my current issue later on.
3. Sidewinder – I was really excited by the Sidewinder, but thus far no one has recommended them. I know the numbers imply the SW is a more flippy mold than others under consideration, but I've seen plenty of folks throw stable Sidewinders (especially Champ SWs). I'll still give them a throw since a buddy has some spares, but I think the TL or Pipeline are more likely to win the spot in my bag.

Tier 2 (will test if I can find some to borrow, or if Tier 1 doesn't work out)
1. Insanity – This disc went from completely off my radar to heavily under consideration. I like that it is widely available in both a flat/stable plastic (Cosmic Neutron) and domey/less stable plastic (Plasma). Three downsides: I don't know anyone that has one I can throw, it's faster than what I ideally would want for this slot, and my previous experience with gyro fairway drivers has been poor. But the number of people that have heavily touted this mold has piqued my interest.
2. Drift – Looks like it starts out less stable than I would prefer, but could beat in to being a Stag and Hatchet replacement rather than Getaway and Stag replacement. I'm intrigued, but not enough to buy one unless the discs above it don't work.
3. Essence – the closest disc to a Stag that is also molded by Lat64. But inventory on the Essence is barely better than the Stag, and I'm not sure if I can find an Essence that starts off stable enough to fill my pop-top Stag slot. Intriguing mold but probably only one I would throw if I can borrow a couple first.
4. Crave – I would need to feel the disc in hand before being willing to buy a couple. PDGA specs make it look like it will feel very Leopard-like and have an uncomfortably narrow rim.

Tier 3 (thanks for the rec, I looked into it further, but this doesn't appear to be what I want)
1. Eagle X/L – E-Xs are too stable for what I want unless I buy DX Eagles, and I don't really want to rely on base plastic fairway drivers. E-Ls just seem like a wild goose chase to find, so I'm not sure how that would make me any better off than just waiting around for a once-per-year Stag run.
2. Exodus – glad I crowd sourced info on the Exodus. This mold was high on my 'want to try list' and I was strongly considering ordering a couple. Thank you all for steering me clear of it!
3. Centurion – appears to be a Leopard variant, and I don't like Leopard rims.
4. Lift – Reminds me of an Escape, which is a road I've been down before. I want something slower and more workable than an Escape so I'm assuming the Lift wouldn't work out.
5. Teebird – Too stable
6. Vulture – See Teebird
7. Millenium discs in general (OLF, OLS, etc) – probably too boutique of a brand for my taste. I want something more available than a Stag.

 

[aphilso1]

My 2 cents is the sidewinder you mentioned. I always carry at least one in my bag but usually two, a lighter champion and a heavy star. The champion I can consistently get a nice S curve when I need it and the star will stay straight for me and is easy to anny if I want. When I jog a course for a quick round & only carry 2-3 discs, the sidewinder is always one of them as it just goes straight. Roadrunners & Katanas are good as well but they'll usually fade right for me.

Since I've relied on them so much, for the last six weeks I played without them to see if I could find a replacement and nothing compared to them for stability/predictability.

Hey, first Sidewinder recommendation! That is definitely the sort of pairing that I am looking for. One that is a naturally straight disc, and can be manipulated to follow a straight-to-panning hyzer line or will fight out of an anny after a long ride to the right. And a second that is a bit more naturally flippy for hyzerflips and touchier shots.

I know the SW technically is stamped as -3 turn, which implies that a straight SW is an oxymoron. But I've seen people throw Sidewinders that are true 'hold any angle' discs and other Sidewinders that are closer to a Roadrunner.

 

[dehaas]

I'd say gstar TL3 would probably be easier to find than star of champ? And closer to a hypothetical pro plastic TL3 than anything else?

 

[aphilso1]

I'd say gstar TL3 would probably be easier to find than star of champ? And closer to a hypothetical pro plastic TL3 than anything else?

Yeah, my experience with G* is also that its stability is closer to Pro. That's a good point. Right now Marshall Street has a whole bunch of lightweight Star TL3s, plus a good assortment of Champ TL3s and Star TLs. So I'd probably start off with a 160g TL3 for the less stable end of the pairing, but would definitely keep my eyes open for a run of G* TLs or TL3s.

 

[Emoney]

I will second the Volt.

I could realistically have 5 volts and cover all the stabilities for fairway shots.

The cosmic neutron are very beefy and the fission (i assume in lighter weights) can be pretty flippy.

It will cover all shots in all conditions.

I hope the pipeline works for ya. If you max out a little over 300ft or under, the pipeline may work. That PL plastic beats in quickly. So make sure you give it about 20 throws before you get an idea of the flight.

 

[DanJon]

In my opinion, what you are describing is a lighter weight Star Eagle X.

When I threw them, I had a couple in my bag around 166g.

They start off decently stable and beat in to multiple roles (straight, flip up, etc).

Plus the star plastic in that weight is usually nice and grippy.

Pair them with a heavy star for that Teebird like role.

As far as Millennium, it's pretty easy to find OLF's and OLS's, which would be my next suggestions.

They even run them in pro plastic.

 

[aphilso1]

I will second the Volt.

I could realistically have 5 volts and cover all the stabilities for fairway shots.

The cosmic neutron are very beefy and the fission (i assume in lighter weights) can be pretty flippy.

It will cover all shots in all conditions.

I hope the pipeline works for ya. If you max out a little over 300ft or under, the pipeline may work. That PL plastic beats in quickly. So make sure you give it about 20 throws before you get an idea of the flight.

OK talk to me about your Volts. First off, how fast is the mold? PDGA lists them at 2.0 for rim width (which would be faster than I want) but MVP lists them at 1.8 (which is perfect). I'm not so worried about the stable end of the spectrum, as the reputation of the Volt is that it is nearly a Teebird in pretty standard weight/plastic combos. But the fact that you say you could cover the full stability spectrum is quite intriguing. When you say Fission Volts are pretty flippy, what would you compare them to? Like an FD or River level of stability?

As for the Pipeline, I max out past 300' but for that type of disc I'm typically throwing it from 275'-310' on an 80% power shot. I saw some videos of guys throwing it in that range, and it seemed like the SP Pipelines can hold a stable line pretty well at that power. Dudes at 350'+ were flippy them over pretty substantially though. And I am actually stoked about the PL beating in quick! Ideally I'd like an SP that can hold its initial stability for a long while, and then cycle through PLs for the less stable end of my fairway lineup.

 

[seedlings]

Get a couple Gstar TL from the Innova pro shop. Don't get blue. It's a horrid color.

 

[Emoney]

Ok yeh at 300 im using mids. So we are probably using different parts of our bags for those distances.

The Pipeline should be ideal for you then. A Volt is a similar speed (8) but has a less side-side flight. Its a more A-B type flight.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

How far do you throw again? Haha. What's your elevation above sea level?

Volts are probably too beefy from Bro-d description of the stag vs insanity.. Crave might do it if it was the right one but I've got a few and they've been overstable to stable, I've found them inconsistent and kind of lacking in distance, decent workhorse but not Stag kind of glide (from what I hear/read). Basically it's a baby Volt and fairly interchangeable if you're throwing 350. Nothing special, kinda short, but definitely a workhorse so everything. Some people with more arm say it does everything, I get a little turn and solid but short fade. It's a disc that I use grudgingly (FH,BH,OH) but other people seem to love. I can't deal with losing the 30' at 300' ish of power.

Sidewinder are nice but I assumed you were looking for more stable...

 

[elmexdela]

recent in the past 5+ years champ sw have been s to os

 

[wolfhaley]

TL and TL3 are similar, but I prefer the TL. You throw farther than me so you might be able to cover most fairway driver needs between the TL, TL3, Teebird, and Teebird3 in various plastics. Unless you are an Eagle person.

If the Teebird is so great why are there 4 of them? :gross:

*says the guy who throws Explorers*





Eagles are better though.

 

[aphilso1]

I got a chance to throw a Sidewinder, a 1.5 year old TL, and a fresh TL last night.

Champ Sidewinder: Reminded me a lot of an Escape and is definitely in the same stability class as a Stag. It mashes with easy effort. From hyzer it flips to flat before fading out. From flat it flies a big helix. From anny it holds the anny but fights out just enough to land flat rather than on a roller angle. However, the rim was wider than I expected and it definitely is a faster disc than I want for this slot. Doesn't feel like it powers down well. Weight was unmarked, the owner doesn't recall how heavy it was, but it felt mid-160's to me.

Worked-in Champ TL: Very nice disc. More stable than a fresh Stag. We had a bit of a breeze last night (5-10mph), and throwing the TL into the headwind made it fly *exactly* like a Stag would in calm conditions. On headwind holes I was landing it in all my familiar landing zones and following the same Stag flight path to get there. Ditto for L-to-R crosswinds if thrown flat or anny. It flew noticeably more stable and shorter on tailwind shots, and crosswind shots where the wind was hitting the top of the flight plate (L-to-R hyzers, and R-to-L annies). Overall, this flew how I expect a VIP-X max weight Stag would, or maybe just a hair more stable than that. Weight was 167g penned.

Fresh Champ TL: Really not that much different than the worked in one stability wise. Weight was unmarked but it felt like a max weight when compared to the 167g. Flew flick lines surprisingly well. A tad less responsive to manipulating release angles when compared to the worked in one. Overall it was just a slightly more stable (mostly in the HSS) version of the worked in TL, but not different enough to warrant bagging both.

Overall Thoughts:
Sidewinder is no longer under consideration. Just a hair too fast for woods play IMO, which is primarily what I would be using it for.
TL is still under consideration. I really like the flight of a fresh TL as it closes the gap with my beat in Felon. However, I am concerned that I won't be able to find a less stable version of the TL to minimize the gap from TL to Hatchet. Seeing a 1.5 year old disc fly so similarly to a fresh one makes me wonder just how long I'd have to beat one in to get a fresh TL/beat TL pairing. If Innova made the TL in Pro plastic, I think the TL would be the leader in the clubhouse. But with the only real options being Champ and Star (I am really hesitant to bag DX in drivers) I'm just not sure that the TL can beat in in a timely fashion.

 

[aphilso1]

How far do you throw again? Haha. What's your elevation above sea level?

Volts are probably too beefy from Bro-d description of the stag vs insanity.. Crave might do it if it was the right one but I've got a few and they've been overstable to stable, I've found them inconsistent and kind of lacking in distance, decent workhorse but not Stag kind of glide (from what I hear/read). Basically it's a baby Volt and fairly interchangeable if you're throwing 350. Nothing special, kinda short, but definitely a workhorse so everything. Some people with more arm say it does everything, I get a little turn and solid but short fade. It's a disc that I use grudgingly (FH,BH,OH) but other people seem to love. I can't deal with losing the 30' at 300' ish of power.

Sidewinder are nice but I assumed you were looking for more stable...

Thanks for the extra gyro intel. I'll keep the Crave down in Tier 3. Volts are intriguing if they really do show a wide stability spectrum based on different plastic/weight combos. I'd love to try a heavy Cosmic Neutron vs a Fission to see both ends of the Volt's capability. You and I both know that gyro rims take forever to beat in, so the stability you buy is the stability you get for a long time. Can't really beat one in enough to cycle, that's for sure. Unless you're patient and have 5+ years of time to wait.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Thanks for the extra gyro intel. I'll keep the Crave down in Tier 3. Volts are intriguing if they really do show a wide stability spectrum based on different plastic/weight combos. I'd love to try a heavy Cosmic Neutron vs a Fission to see both ends of the Volt's capability. You and I both know that gyro rims take forever to beat in, so the stability you buy is the stability you get for a long time. Can't really beat one in enough to cycle, that's for sure. Unless you're patient and have 5+ years of time to wait.

Geez man at 300' and if you like the sidewinder I don't know about the Volt.. You will be stuck in one plastic fission to get under 170g, unless you are cool with that. I feel like 350' ish is the power level for them.

Hmmm so I think you said you ordered some pipelines... with the sidewinder out, I don't know if the insanity will work out for you either, it will be a little fast for what you are wanting though it should fly the lines you want. From the gyro camp I would say that leaves you with the Crave or Drift. The Drift I haven't tried but want to because it's got the same numbers as a Relay with one notch up in speed rating. Marm-O-Set loves his drifts he says they are very leopard-y, he's president of that fan club

You are saying you want a low speed woods disc.. Have you ever tried the Relay?

Definitely the best gyro disc hands down across all power levels... I think it's like the sidewinder I threw 10yrs ago when I had an extra 70' of power.. I bought one for a guy that works for me/buddy and he let his wife throw it, now there's at least 5 (/20) people throwing Relays at Sunday league. It's his wife's max distance driver next to Vikings.. And I use it for control or anny's.. Easy to throw, sneaky long, turns without burning. High on the fun factor scale or for some 3 disc. After that I'm outta gyro.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Relays only available in neutron or cosmic neutron, drift has 3+ plastic options. I'm hesitant to try the drift based on the gyro effect on ohm vs pilot. I love the ohm not so much with the pilot. The Relay / Comet anchor my woods bag.

 

[aphilso1]

Relays only available in neutron or cosmic neutron, drift has 3+ plastic options. I'm hesitant to try the drift based on the gyro effect on ohm vs pilot. I love the ohm not so much with the pilot. The Relay / Comet anchor my woods bag.

Never thrown Relays. I will look into them.

And I'm not 100% married to the idea of needing multiple plastic types. Traditionally that is how I cheat my way to starting a cycle is to get one that beats in quick and another one that stays fresh longer. But with gyro it has always seemed that weight has the bigger impact on flight characteristics.

I guess my real problem is that my speed margin for error is pretty small. Something fast like an Escape or Sidewinder isn't as workable as I want. Something slower and naturally workable like a Leopard feels really uncomfortable in my hand. It makes finding that unicorn pretty darn tough. I think the TL could have been it, if Innova would actually make it in their full assortment of plastics.

 

[ray1970]

While the FD is typically my go-to I have been looking for a compliment to it that I can trust in moderate winds and will also take a little more power.

I picked up a Legacy Rival and am going to give that a go next time I get out to play

 

[VictorB]

And I'm not 100% married to the idea of needing multiple plastic types. Traditionally that is how I cheat my way to starting a cycle is to get one that beats in quick and another one that stays fresh longer.

I used to be in that boat. Now I'm more inclined to buy lighter plastic and not just everything max weight. I've found that for my arm speed buying in the 167 range will allow me to get a 'more beat' flight out of a disc compared to a max weight one. I kind of wish it hadn't taken me so long to really try out throwing under 170g