ThighMaster move from DG Spin Doctor

[timothy42b]

I think about this frequently ever since you first pointed it out to me. I'd be very happy to live in a world where we discover there are a few things we'd eventually call fundamentally different forms at the highest level.

I have one clear example of fundamentally different form.

About 20 years ago my employer sent me to Germany for several years. One day in a German park, my brother and a local German took turns throwing boomerangs, with strikingly different form. Boomerangs have almost no mass and an inertial resistance is hard to find. My brother, with a background in little league baseball, rotated his torso, shifted his weight, moved his arm in a relaxed pitching windup motion. The local resident faced squarely forward, used a large step and weight shift and a forward flex of the entire torso, with a downward vertical chopping arm motion. Wish I had a video, words fail. They threw equally well, both velocity and control. The baseball throw looked like less effort but who knows?

I ordered the Homer Kelley biography book today. I've always wondered where he came up with his ideas, maybe this will explain it.

 

[timothy42b]

Swingy boys and girls (aka out/in/out or wide rail):
Hand is brought in to the chest passively but if you don't add some speed/effort/acceleration to the hand out of the pocket it comes out early and feels soooooo weak.

Pullers:
Hand is moved forward down the "line" actively and there is no need to focus on an "out" because the late move of the hand to the front of the disc is automatic as you move down the line. Any intentional move "out" here results in an early/weak release.

This makes sense to me in terms of the deliberate vs automatic distinction, and it's an example of where deliberate can help or get in the way depending on what you're doing. (and maybe suggests why the Beto sometimes works but usually doesn't)

 

[Brychanus]

I have one clear example of fundamentally different form.

About 20 years ago my employer sent me to Germany for several years. One day in a German park, my brother and a local German took turns throwing boomerangs, with strikingly different form. Boomerangs have almost no mass and an inertial resistance is hard to find. My brother, with a background in little league baseball, rotated his torso, shifted his weight, moved his arm in a relaxed pitching windup motion. The local resident faced squarely forward, used a large step and weight shift and a forward flex of the entire torso, with a downward vertical chopping arm motion. Wish I had a video, words fail. They threw equally well, both velocity and control. The baseball throw looked like less effort but who knows?

I ordered the Homer Kelley biography book today. I've always wondered where he came up with his ideas, maybe this will explain it.

Definitely interesting and a good example.

I have talked frequently with Josh (and Sidewinder and others) about swing/pull concepts and continua. I've had more modest speeds than him but on my own ~60mph on 3 steps, I do think there is some real effect of maximizing the horizontal-ish phases of the move along the tee (without a domain of acceptability). I personally found that this was a bit harder on my body on the plantside mechanics in general, which I wouldn't generalize from only myself because my own body and history have their own oddities and weaknesses. It does remind me of the trend in MLB to maximize the forward stride ("horizontal" force) down the mound with a commensurate increase in average pitch speed. I still tend to think that every player at the top level is using something somewhere along that fuzzy continuum and players can benefit from exploring both to a greater or lesser extent. I still like to compare/contrast e.g. Mcbeth vs. Wiggins as exemplars of high performance with different forms (and perhaps for slightly different tasks since Mcbeth was going for 13x and Wiggins for world distance records).

This makes sense to me in terms of the deliberate vs automatic distinction, and it's an example of where deliberate can help or get in the way depending on what you're doing. (and maybe suggests why the Beto sometimes works but usually doesn't)

I think that's fair. I still generally avoid the active/passive distinctions in how I think about human motion, I suppose. But fwiw I know that philosophy doesn't work for everyone or potentially explain every phenomenon and don't mind them when certain people need the learning cues.

 

[Jaani]

The ThighMaster is one of the only moves I tend to "actively" do nowadays. It feels like activating the thigh (of the brace) both pulls the backleg forward but somehow straightens it the same time. So it looks like it kicks more speed to rotation which is easy to misread as "back leg disc golfy" move, but I can guarantee I don't kick or squish any bugs, it's still all in the front leg.

And as I stated earlier, inner thighs seem to work in sync, so activating the front seems to leak some activation to the back leg, too. I have some problems in those areas, so I can't feel it much in my left leg, could be normal, or maybe I'm different, I don't know. Anyway, it feels more balanced if not more powerful, which again can lead to harder shots or faster body work in general. Who knows.

To be honest. At this point I don't even care actually. It feels good to do, so I do it and teach it, even if I seemingly shouldn't. My growing cynicism towards disc golf coaching has been proven correct and reasonable by this thread.

 

[Nick Carroll]

I think this is maybe the most common experience of people trying to learn this stuff in adulthood if they didn't already have a significant relevant athletic background. You will never find someone as sympathetic as me to your plight, Nick (but many people will be tied with me).

Thank you! Yeah without going too off topic here, I've tried getting local coaching years ago, and then last year I took online coaching, and ultimately there were limits to what any coaches can do in this type of situation: my body got used to doing something badly, and became exceptionally "locked in" to those movement patterns. The disc golf coaching scene is much more fleshed out now, than it ever has been. And I think it's important these teaching concepts, terminology, and overall methods are refined to help more people as early as possible in their form journeys.

 

[Brychanus]

The ThighMaster is one of the only moves I tend to "actively" do nowadays. It feels like activating the thigh (of the brace) both pulls the backleg forward but somehow straightens it the same time. So it looks like it kicks more speed to rotation which is easy to misread as "back leg disc golfy" move, but I can guarantee I don't kick or squish any bugs, it's still all in the front leg.

And as I stated earlier, inner thighs seem to work in sync, so activating the front seems to leak some activation to the back leg, too. I have some problems in those areas, so I can't feel it much in my left leg, could be normal, or maybe I'm different, I don't know. Anyway, it feels more balanced if not more powerful, which again can lead to harder shots or faster body work in general. Who knows.

To be honest. At this point I don't even care actually. It feels good to do, so I do it and teach it, even if I seemingly shouldn't. My growing cynicism towards disc golf coaching has been proven correct and reasonable by this thread.

That helps me understand what you are emphasizing, thank you. To clarify, all I was attempting to do here was motivated by curiosity. Some of which involves and influences coaching, and some of it does not.

 

[Al Dente]

Jaani, Josh, I really enjoy your videos and the spirit in which the information is presented. Thanks for commenting.

 

[Brychanus]

Care to share with the class? Lol

Or you can just text me if it's personal

Well, I'm also part the student in this case, but I'll try (and hopefully say it better later). I like how you framed the scenario here:

"If you think about "pelvis is an anchor" camp where your only thought is to stop your forward momentum and keep your center of mass as far behind your plant foot as possible before swinging your arm you're going to probably recruit thighmaster muscles naturally as a result of trying to stop better. The toe touch seems to me like a result of a better/earlier brace keeping you closed for longer."

I will (happily) skip some details, but:

I focused on this for a bit yesterday trying out different parts of the cues, and I think I "understand" this physically because if I try to take my own move more linear-horizontal, emphasizing CoG-behind-and-stop and more plant leg out etc. (these are all kind of related), there's immediately a bit more emphasis on my hip adductors. Ricky's transition move also comes to mind, where you can probably guess that there's a load on those muscles in his move, roughly in the context I'm describing. Maybe not the best example for everything you said, but the leg loading immediately sprang to mind (Wiggins is similar I think):



If I put more GG in the move, I think there's a bit less tax on the adductors but that's just kind of a byproduct of the posture and direction of the loading/unloading force. My guess is that both of them are doing their version of the thighmaster or squeezing the bull, but the recruitment will relate to the above in some proportion. So that just seems to follow from the difference you laid out, potentially. Hypothesis: across more normative players, differences in hip mobility and how clean the move is will also affect the appearance of the counterbalance/kickback/toe drag.



Coaching: I probably get the cue. Most of the above is just about how I would "size up" various people and the space of moves available to them.

 

[Brychanus]

Thank you! Yeah without going too off topic here, I've tried getting local coaching years ago, and then last year I took online coaching, and ultimately there were limits to what any coaches can do in this type of situation: my body got used to doing something badly, and became exceptionally "locked in" to those movement patterns. The disc golf coaching scene is much more fleshed out now, than it ever has been. And I think it's important these teaching concepts, terminology, and overall methods are refined to help more people as early as possible in their form journeys.

Hear hear!

 

[itlnstln]

Well, I'm also part the student in this case, but I'll try (and hopefully say it better later). I like how you framed the scenario here:

"If you think about "pelvis is an anchor" camp where your only thought is to stop your forward momentum and keep your center of mass as far behind your plant foot as possible before swinging your arm you're going to probably recruit thighmaster muscles naturally as a result of trying to stop better. The toe touch seems to me like a result of a better/earlier brace keeping you closed for longer."

I will (happily) skip some details, but:

I focused on this for a bit yesterday trying out different parts of the cues, and I think I "understand" this physically because if I try to take my own move more linear-horizontal, emphasizing CoG-behind-and-stop and more plant leg out etc. (these are all kind of related), there's immediately a bit more emphasis on my hip adductors. Ricky's transition move also comes to mind, where you can probably guess that there's a load on those muscles in his move, roughly in the context I'm describing. Maybe not the best example for everything you said, but the leg loading immediately sprang to mind (Wiggins is similar I think):

View attachment 337839

If I put more GG in the move, I think there's a bit less tax on the adductors but that's just kind of a byproduct of the posture and direction of the loading/unloading force. My guess is that both of them are doing their version of the thighmaster or squeezing the bull, but the recruitment will relate to the above in some proportion. So that just seems to follow from the difference you laid out, potentially. Hypothesis: across more normative players, differences in hip mobility and how clean the move is will also affect the appearance of the counterbalance/kickback/toe drag.

View attachment 337840

Coaching: I probably get the cue. Most of the above is just about how I would "size up" various people and the space of moves available to them.

When I shadow swing with a more horizontal brace (in Josh's parlance) like Ricky, I feel like I need more speed into and/or more adductor activation (particularly in the plant leg) to get me to balance otherwise I fall backward. I more vertical brace is easier for me to get to into balance without additional "help" of run up speed or adductor activation.

Interestingly, I feel a parallel with baseball where the horizontal brace aligns somewhat with pitching (long stride, more driving force going into the throw) and the vertical brace aligning to the throwing motion of most fielders (shorter stride, more vertically stable). As a former catcher, my body prefers the vertical brace, because it's more like my regular throwing motion in key ways (mostly balance). I bet if I were a pitcher, I would gravitate to a horizontal brace. Not sure if this means anything. A little bored at work, I suppose

 

[BrotherDave]

This is almost everyone in this thread. I can't say I'm not enjoying it though.

 

[jerkwagon]

You know Seabass, it's really hard to know what your intentions are and messages mean when, most the time, you don't reply with words but only gifs and embedded videos. That leaves a lot for interpretation. And for me, it comes off a bit arrogant to not communicate with full sentences or words. Maybe it's just me, dunno.

Anyway.

I still don't believe we talk exactly about the same move, though yours seem very good. I have tried and squeezed my legs together in the walk up but I never learned that and it felt restrictive. ThighMaster is done at the moment of plant only, so you can still walk relaxed, but also PULL the momentum forward as the plant hits the ground.

This is why i find this place so useless, you ask a question and all you get is gifs and videos, not much context and that seems to be the meta but then theres also polar opposites of pages and pages of words. either way its no where near the goldilocks zone.

 

[jupiterboy]

Can't say I'm getting more distance, but I am getting many more positive comments about my thighs!

 

[Brychanus]

I think a lot of people in the community are yearning for some clearer testing of things backed up with some stats. Even though it's still unclear in many ways, it's easy to get a bit more clarity. It's really surprising not many people seem to be doing it on YT with the tech disc, so with bad editing, bad video quality, bad marketing, being an unknown person that's not an expert or veteran, yet a simple video 1 week ago of me testing wrist curling with the tech disc got 7.6k views, which seems to be quite a bit for DG unless you are really famous. People will even listen to minutes of voice over on a still image, especially if they're from Scandinavia where they have a higher attention span according to YT metrics, LOL.

That's awesome and I totally buy regional differences in attention spans.

I also think it's incredibly important to test ideas, and that is a large part of public buy-in over time.

I was thinking about "progress" in disc golf given its origins and how messy parts of it are.

There is a culture in academia where people are often touted and remembered most for their theories long before we had the capacity to test it all, and become even more famous in hindsight. You can find many examples in Physics where the fundamental ideas and equations in the early 1900s tended to be very short and accounted for a wide range of phenomena. In other cases, attributions and sources are forgotten and wash away, sometimes to be rediscovered later (or not). Is this ok?

In fields like biology theories often look muddier, at least at first. In Engineering, Biomedical Engineering is still considered an "ugly stepchild" offshoot because it is "not real engineering" to some people. But those are the people literally creating devices that save lives. Is this ok?

What does that say about the critics in each case? @itlnstln contributes what sometimes only "old timer" perspectives convey - everyone needs to keep working toward the better and away from the worse. Sometimes that comes with costs along the way.

I was mentioning to someone that it's often also wise to avoid the "It worked for me, and therefore thee" habit. Or to avoid the corollary "it did not work for me, and therefore not thee."

Keep it up with your data @disc-golf-neil. And thanks for your openness to entertain sometimes counterintuitive and strange ideas.

It's going to be ok (probably).

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Will this be your legacy theory?

It's going to be ok (probably).

 

[Brychanus]

Will this be your legacy theory?

At this point it's all I want (for everyone) lol

 

[Polecat132]

This isn't related to the thighmaster video, but I felt it was relevant to the discussion here since its a critique of one of jaani's videos. What are your thoughts on his critiques? I think a lot of the disagreements might just be a misunderstanding (much like the arguments in this thread) but maybe not.

Also I found it interesting how he talks about stopping the swing and how his torso rotation goes backwards at one point. Should we be actively trying to stop the shoulders in the swing?

 

[Brychanus]

FWIW rather than talk about every detail, the part he described from 6:00 or so is part of what I thought I learned from the Perpetually Longer Swing Drill, and at least part of shifting off the rear side in Ride the Bull. Also like practicing it in this little move. I'll look at more when I have time later.

 

[sidewinder22]

This is why i find this place so useless, you ask a question and all you get is gifs and videos, not much context and that seems to be the meta but then theres also polar opposites of pages and pages of words. either way its no where near the goldilocks zone.

Username checks out. I thought I gave you a decent answer to one of your questions, but I guess I'm useless.


That ^ thread also gives some backbone to some of the BS in this thread, here's some highlights...

Swim move is actually the only thing that I have ALWAYS doubted and not changed my mind about. All the other gimmicky magic trick moves I have bought and endorsed, tried out and made up my mind after a thorough investigation.

Yes, I am aware.

And yes, I believe the body can make the move even if you don't focus on it.

Or just let the shoulder follow the throwing arm without forcing it. Just like it's not necessary to push the back leg to make it move with the pelvis, you really don't have to push the rear arm or shoulder to make it follow the torso.

Of course for most people here this just can't be true, but I believe it is. I believe in letting things happen, not force them to happen.

First of all, Javelin and Baseball and nearly every other sport is done with the rear arm. They really need the front of the body to get out of the way, simple as that. The front arm and the front side won't rotate from behind so we would have to rotate it first to make space for the throwing arm.

In disc golf backhand everything happens freely because we throw from the front without anything stopping the arm from moving freely.

I have always wondered why, oh why we still talk about javelin more than disc golf, but maybe it's because us coaches just want to prove and not improve.

I used Javelin because I figured you are more familiar with than over in Finland and that might help further the discussion or understanding here.

In a backhand, the rear arm must get/clear out of the way of the backswing in some fashion. Just like you mention in forehand the lead arm must get out of the way of the forward swing for the trail arm to swing thru unimpeded.

Dr. Rotella talks about how there is learning mode and performance mode. Performance mode is when you aren't thinking about anything but sending the ball/disc to it's home, but in learning mode you have to think about things.

I teach the off arm in several different ways. You have to give it a task of some sort, like not spilling the beverage or swimming. This is probably more up your ally.


How about a one arm olympic hammer throw or dodgeball backhand? Do you not use your trail arm to leverage the swing?

There is nothing passive about this swim move from younger Corey Ellis. First time I tried it I got an extra 30' or so, very noticeable increase in speed/spin on the disc.

 

[Nick Carroll]

This isn't related to the thighmaster video, but I felt it was relevant to the discussion here since its a critique of one of jaani's videos. What are your thoughts on his critiques? I think a lot of the disagreements might just be a misunderstanding (much like the arguments in this thread) but maybe not.

Also I found it interesting how he talks about stopping the swing and how his torso rotation goes backwards at one point. Should we be actively trying to stop the shoulders in the swing?

The critique missed the mark - unintentionally - because what Jaani was explaining was how to deal with an issue a person had in the video. It's very meta, but a person had an issue with collapsing the shoulder some (really the upper arm is coming in too close to the body, dropping the elbow more than needed). Owen from Trebuchet Disc Golf made a video on that. Jaani made a video commenting on it, because the issue in question is a bit of a hot button issue right now. And there's a little bit of confusion because of that. I commented in the video, as well as another thread on these forums, trying to clear things up a bit:

Spin Doctor getting jumped by kuoksa

Do we agree with him? 🤷🏽‍♂️

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