VERY overstable mids

[Mike C]

My experiences have shown me that I have greater success by doing my usual throw with a slower disc than trying to be easy with it and only throw a Firebird 200'.If you are trying to tell people that it is somehow easier to throw discs with varying degrees of hyzer consistently as opposed to just doing what we all worked on for months and years to do…throw a disc flat… I will call you a liar on that.

Agreed on the Firebird part. I disagree on the flat throw part. I suspect many will disagree (And granted I am new to DG), but I think the mentality of throw everything flat is one of the worst mindsets I've seen people have with Disc Golf. I didn't work months or years on learning to do this, and as soon as I stopped trying to do that a world of possibilities opened up for me. I feel in much more control using varying degrees of hyzer on my Buzz than I do throwing a drone, buzz and comet flat and hoping the disc does what I want. My philosophy is rely on the disc as little as possible and rely on yourself as much as possible, within reason. This lets me become extremely familiar with all my molds, and teaches me to hit a variety of lines with the same disc by utilizing different angles of release. Skills that are transferable across a wide spectrum of molds, rather than feeling I need to have X mold for X shot.

how many discs should we carry?

The least amount you need to cover all the shots you think you'll encounter. If you need an OSMD to do that, then carry it.

The point I would like to make is that there is less overall variance, thus a greater chance of success, in executing a flat throw with our normal power with an OSMD that will travel in the 200' range vs. the other suggested ways I've read of achieving the same result of A. powering down of a overstable driver, or B. attempting to hyzer a less stable disc to achieve the same result.

I have not noticed such. For a 200' left turning shot, I can throw any disc in my bag (Magic included) flat and I will get a left turn. For a 300' left turning shot, I can do the same, except the Magic would take a bit of hyzer. I don't see any advantage to using an OSMD compared to my Wizard for such a shot. Anyone who needs an overstable disc to throw a 200' shot, whether it's straight or left turning, has form flaws IMO.

I just find it completely ridiculous when I read over and over again how players on here are trying to throw their putters on every upshot 250' and 300' away. You are opening yourself up to a world of pain that is completely unnecessary.

lol? "Trying?" I don't "try" to throw my putter for 250' and 300' upshots, I successfully do it every time I play and it's probably the most consistent shot in my game. It doesn't take any hyzer to make my Wizard go 300' and then fade predictably at the end. Why in the world would I want to use an overstable midrange for a shot I can handle with a slower, stable disc that I can throw more gently to achieve the same shot with a higher degree of control?

 

[discspeed]

I would also like to add that over the years I have spent time with overstable mids in my bag. I've used Gators and Drones quite a bit. I came to the conclusion that they were not necessary partially through experience. I really found that I could execute the shots I used them for BETTER with a XXX or Firebird. I suspect many arguing for very overstable midranges have not put our suggestions to the test.

 

[slowRoll]

Part of it is that a vast majority of people on here aren't pros or top advances level players. They're rec to intermediate players looking to get better. They don't have the skills or consistancy they want. Most of the advice given is geared twards players improving their skills and game, not just advice on how to shave a stroke or two. If a player is happy with their skills and consistancy and want to minimize their scores with the skill set they have, then finding the discs that work the best for them is a good idea. If a player wants to improve their skill set and consistancy then taking the advice that will help them do that the easiest way known is a good idea. That is the advice we're giving.

I'm in total agreement there. That is not a good argument.

I want to continue to improve my game too even if I am a little further along than the groups you mentioned above. That's why I keep checking back in on these discussions to try and learn a little in between doing dataloads throughout my day. I also think that I can help people out too by sharing my experiences. Thanks to www.discgolfscene.com I have been tracking my rounds played and the progress I've been making. I'm averaging 2.53 rounds played per week, and am getting more consitent with my scoring even if it isn't always what I would like it to be. I have no illusions of grandeur about my abilities. I'm a 36 year old man trying to go against 20 year olds that don't get tired and don't feel like they've been beaten with a ball bat on day 2 of a 2 day tourney. I know that I have a lot of work to do if I'm going to achieve my goal of becoming our TN amateur state champ this year, but I'm working on it. I shot my first 1000 rated round and came from second card to win by 3 strokes at Preston Miller, Bowling Green KY a few weeks back with a 12 down. I did so by using my Drone and my Buzzz off the tee over and over again. I just don't understand why that is somehow a bad thing, and think that the logic that we somehow have to shape every shot with the same Roc is ridiculous. It's a simple game for simple minds, hit fairways and make putts. I am fully capable of throwing hyzers and anhyzers, but there is always a degree of difficulty associated with those shots. Too much or too little and your off by a wide margin because what started as a half inch off at the hit turns into dozens of feet down the fairway. I understand what you keep telling me. I just don't agree with you today. Maybe tomorrow I will see what you see, but I think there are some on here who don't even try to see the other side of the coin.

 

[hewittdallas]

lol? "Trying?" I don't "try" to throw my putter for 250' and 300' upshots, I successfully do it every time I play and it's probably the most consistent shot in my game. It doesn't take any hyzer to make my Wizard go 300' and then fade predictably at the end. Why in the world would I want to use an overstable midrange for a shot I can handle with a slower, stable disc that I can throw more gently to achieve the same shot with a higher degree of control?

Mike, what plastic do you use to throw those Wizards on the approach? I assume Evo? I recently switched back to the Wizard and am loving it again, but I haven't decided what plastics to go with. Thanks.

Back to the original topic, I guess I can't help but ask is it really worth removing them from the bag completely? Sure, there may not be many shots we prefer them for, but I don't have a crowded bag as I tend to be a mold minimalist (for the most part).

Assuming you develop the skills to nail the shot with any disc, why not keep an overstable mid? Good technique plus predictable mold (as most overstable mids are) seems like a great recipe for success to me. Again, that is assuming good technique, which I don't fully have yet.

 

[discspeed]

I really do put thought into this stuff, unfortunately for me, everytime I try to add something I feel is of value to the conversation, I end up get bopped on the head like a child by someone who has thousands of forum posts.

It's unfair to dismiss rational and intelligent arguments in this way rather than considering some of the specific points being reiterated. Your last long post read as if it were on the first page of this discussion as it was countering lines of reasoning regarding our position that we have made clear we do not espouse.

 

[Technohic]

As with all forms of advice geared toward improving your game, its for development and discovering what you can do; when score counts, use what works best for you most consistantly.

 

[discspeed]

Assuming you develop the skills to nail the shot with any disc, why not keep an overstable mid? Good technique plus predictable mold (as most overstable mids are) seems like a great recipe for success to me. Again, that is assuming good technique, which I don't fully have yet.

Because they are not AS predictable as a slow overstable driver for the same purpose.

 

[hewittdallas]

Because they are not AS predictable as a slow overstable driver for the same purpose.

Out of sheer curiosity, is there any rational beyond experience that supports this line of thinking? I am not doubting you, but just wondering why overstable drivers would preform better than overstable mids in terms of consistency (assuming technique is perfect). This may be more of a disc technology/design tangent.

 

[garublador]

I shot my first 1000 rated round and came from second card to win by 3 strokes at Preston Miller, Bowling Green KY a few weeks back with a 12 down. I did so by using my Drone and my Buzzz off the tee over and over again. I just don't understand why that is somehow a bad thing, and think that the logic that we somehow have to shape every shot with the same Roc is ridiculous.

Contrads on the 1000 rated round. I can say with a high degree of confidence that you're better than I am. You're probably at the point where some of this stuff won't apply anymore unless you hit a wall and can't find another way to improve. We aren't saying that you always need to use a Roc for all of those shots, we're saying it should be an option for you. Being able to walk up to a hyzer and choose between a Roc, Wizard, Drone and Firebird is a really nice thing to be able to do. I'm sure either of us could come up with situations that suit any of those discs. If you can only perform that shot with one of them then you're out of luck for the other four scenerios. Until you're able to do that you have to force yourself (learn) to be able to do it with as many discs as possible. So, if it is an option and you choose a Drone then there's no discrepency between what you're doing an what we're saying. If the Drone is the only disc you can use to get even close to that shot, you're probably missing out on a lot of skills that will help a lot.

Maybe tomorrow I will see what you see, but I think there are some on here who don't even try to see the other side of the coin.

Trust me, I've seen the other side of the coin. I spent a couple years there and have made pretty much every argument I argue against now. After evaulating both ways I'm extremely confident in saying that what we're suggesting is, by far, the easiest way to learn. After adopting this philosophy I made more improvements in a couple months than I did in the two years prior and most of it was unlearning all the stuff I was doing wrong.

 

[discspeed]

Out of sheer curiosity, is there any rational beyond experience that supports this line of thinking? I am not doubting you, but just wondering why overstable drivers would preform better than overstable mids in terms of consistency (assuming technique is perfect).

First I will explain my shot selection...I use overstable discs (XXX) mainly for (1)adverse wind conditions, (2)spike shots, (3)flex shots, and (4)low ceiling skip shots (along with some trick shots not pertinent to this discussion).

(1) Overstable drivers cut and fight wind better than overstable mids. They have a thinner profile and more true stability to deal with strong gusts that would push a higher profile mid around. So in these high wind situations there is a lot more guessing going on with the mids. Thrown flat into a strong enough headwind and a Gator/Drone can turnover or fade way late. Thrown with hyzer they expose even more surface area to the wind and get pushed around even more. I've yet to find a wind that had a significant effect on my XXX. Not only are mids more likely to fail in these winds in terms of flight line, even if they hold the line the distance is greatly affected because of the drag the higher profile creates.

(2) Spike shots are much truer (especially in a little wind) with the low profile overstable driver. The Drone in particular, being large diameter, gets blown around on spike shots in crosswinds. So the line is not as predictable with the mid. You also have more range of heights you can throw spike shots with a driver, and range isn't an issue because it can be controlled by height (higher shot lands shorter). A spike shot isn't going to skip if thrown right with a mid or driver, so that's not an advantage inherent to overstable mids.

(3) Flex shots are more forgiving of angle mistakes with drivers than with mids. With a Gator or a Drone, it is not that hard to throw them anhyzer and have them hold the line the whole flight. Just a little too much angle and your flex shot is going into the dirt. The more truly overstable driver can be given a ton of anny and will still fight back...I swear my XXX can pretty much fly forward while in a nearly vertical anny position and slowly fight the whole flight and fade at the end. Once again, add a little wind to the equation and the driver has even more of an advantage.

(4) Low ceiling skip shots are better with drivers...I don't think I have to explain too much on this one...Faster, lower profile, and better wing shape for skipping....Overstable mids can be thrown just about as far on skip shots as they can in the air, or with more angle can be made to do a higher skip and stop right there, and every variation in between. You can even run baskets safely in this manner when the ceiling is too low for an airshot.

 

[what'shisname]

First I will explain my shot selection...I use overstable discs (XXX) mainly for (1)adverse wind conditions, (2)spike shots, (3)flex shots, and (4)low ceiling skip shots (along with some trick shots not pertinent to this discussion).

(1) Overstable drivers cut and fight wind better than overstable mids. They have a thinner profile and more true stability to deal with strong gusts that would push a higher profile mid around. So in these high wind situations there is a lot more guessing going on with the mids. Thrown flat into a strong enough headwind and a Gator/Drone can turnover or fade way late. Thrown with hyzer they expose even more surface area to the wind and get pushed around even more. I've yet to find a wind that had a significant effect on my XXX. Not only are mids more likely to fail in these winds in terms of flight line, even if they hold the line the distance is greatly affected because of the drag the higher profile creates.

(2) Spike shots are much truer (especially in a little wind) with the low profile overstable driver. The Drone in particular, being large diameter, gets blown around on spike shots in crosswinds. So the line is not as predictable with the mid. You also have more range of heights you can throw spike shots with a driver, and range isn't an issue because it can be controlled by height (higher shot lands shorter). A spike shot isn't going to skip if thrown right with a mid or driver, so that's not an advantage inherent to overstable mids.

(3) Flex shots are more forgiving of angle mistakes with drivers than with mids. With a Gator or a Drone, it is not that hard to throw them anhyzer and have them hold the line the whole flight. Just a little too much angle and your flex shot is going into the dirt. The more truly overstable driver can be given a ton of anny and will still fight back...I swear my XXX can pretty much fly forward while in a nearly vertical anny position and slowly fight the whole flight and fade at the end. Once again, add a little wind to the equation and the driver has even more of an advantage.

(4) Low ceiling skip shots are better with drivers...I don't think I have to explain too much on this one...Faster, lower profile, and better wing shape for skipping....Overstable mids can be thrown just about as far on skip shots as they can in the air, or with more angle can be made to do a higher skip and stop right there, and every variation in between. You can even run baskets safely in this manner when the ceiling is too low for an airshot.

I'd agree with all of that.

Though for situations where wind isn't an issue and I have a 200' shot that needs to go hard left at the end and I can't afford the potential skip from a driver.... my drone is the disc I'm reaching for.

I could play the same shot with an Ion, VP or hell, even my fuse and get it right 7 times out of 10, but I'm much more confident in throwing my drone because I know exactly what it's going to do and my percentages are better with it for that shot.

It's not a disc I'm going to use a lot during a round but when the situation calls for it, I love having it in the bag.

 

[hewittdallas]

Thanks for the explanation Discspeed. Now I have some things to think about and play with this weekend when I hit the course.

 

[steven2361]

i love the drone

 

[discspeed]

I'd agree with all of that.

Though for situations where wind isn't an issue and I have a 200' shot that needs to go hard left at the end and I can't afford the potential skip from a driver.... my drone is the disc I'm reaching for.

I could play the same shot with an Ion, VP or hell, even my fuse and get it right 7 times out of 10, but I'm much more confident in throwing my drone because I know exactly what it's going to do and my percentages are better with it for that shot.

In the above scenario I would stand still and throw my XXX because putters/mids don't excel at going straight first with a hard skip. I would pop it out there with a touch of anny and let it finish. On a shot like this it is VERY easy to control the skip of an overstable fairway because there are still fairly slow discs. Then I don't have to find a new strategy in the wind.

 

[slowRoll]

Trust me, I've seen the other side of the coin. I spent a couple years there and have made pretty much every argument I argue against now. After evaulating both ways I'm extremely confident in saying that what we're suggesting is, by far, the easiest way to learn. After adopting this philosophy I made more improvements in a couple months than I did in the two years prior and most of it was unlearning all the stuff I was doing wrong.

That's the part I think I needed to hear. They "why" behind the opinions. When you know someone has been there, it's a little easier to take them at their word. I know that I've been asking a lot of the same type of questions over and over again the last month or so. And I do appreciate all of the knowledge experts on this site being patient with explaining things to me as I am not a skilled linguist. I had to go look up "espouse" discspeed. I don't pretend to be on the debate team.

Going way off topic here... I'm working on two things to improve my game right now; the first is how I look at a course. I've paid a great deal of attention to the layouts of new courses I've traveled to recently, looking at landing areas, and actually playing position shots rather than just how far I can throw it(which compared to these young guys isn't very far) because the best part of my game right now is my accuracy. Watching some of the British Open really made that click. The guy hit a 5 iron off the tee, and then a 3 iron to the green to avoid all the trouble/bunkers that would have came into play if he went big iron or driver off the tee. As I travel to Idlewild next month, I'm pretty sure that I will be using a Buzzz or a Wizard off the tee on a few of those holes to be in better position for my second shot applying this skill.

The second thing I'm convinced I need to work on is being able to do whatever throw a shot dictates with no reservations. I throw strong backhand, have a good thumber/tommy, and a wild 350' sidearm. Until I learn to control that flick as strongly as I have some of my other shots, I will never be the golfer I want to be.

I come here for knowledge, and I do appreciate you all sharing everything you have read and learned. Practical application is best, but knowing the theory behind what we're trying to do is important, and that is what I am here to learn. I'd be happy to read any refresher articles you might recommend. I've checked out DGR in the past, but it's been a while. Some things may make better sense now that I am a little further down the road.

 

[slowRoll]

lol? "Trying?" I don't "try" to throw my putter for 250' and 300' upshots, I successfully do it every time I play and it's probably the most consistent shot in my game. It doesn't take any hyzer to make my Wizard go 300' and then fade predictably at the end. Why in the world would I want to use an overstable midrange for a shot I can handle with a slower, stable disc that I can throw more gently to achieve the same shot with a higher degree of control?

I know one pro in our area that will use that type of disc for that type of shot. He throws a Rhyno farther than most of us can with a Boss. His name is Blair and he's 17 years old and 6'4" 240lbs or so. Are you physically gifted as well? Most of us in the under 6' club can't begin to throw a putter that far. Myself, I have only putted with Wizards since I started playing and carry 2 with me at all times (even in the shower… uh… nevermind). I can tee off with them if the hole is less than 200' but don't like using them off the tee because I don't want to beat/ding up my putters. Personal preference. I've read a great deal about the discing down recommended on threads here with various opinions I will not share here. But I will tell you this, when Blair misses with his Rhyno he is much further away than I am when I miss with my Drone. That is what it is.

 

[discspeed]

It takes no physical gifts to throw a putter 300'...It's actually takes quite a bit less effort than throwing a driver 400'.

 

[garublador]

His name is Blair and he's 17 years old and 6'4" 240lbs or so. Are you physically gifted as well? Most of us in the under 6' club can't begin to throw a putter that far.

It's a different discussion, but height has little to do with being able to throw like that. It's about transferring energy to the disc. We can all generate the energy required to get a putter to go 350' but unless you have good form and great timing, you won't be transferring enough energy to the disc to do it.

 

[Mike C]

Mike, what plastic do you use to throw those Wizards on the approach? I assume Evo? I recently switched back to the Wizard and am loving it again, but I haven't decided what plastics to go with. Thanks.

I generally carry two Wizards, a beat SS for straighter shots with less fade and anhyzer drives, and a fresher evo or Organic for a more stable flight for more fade or headwinds. I have a stash of flat organic wizards that are nice and stable, I love the grip on them.

 

[Technohic]

Carry 2 of your favorite putter mold or get a putter specifically for driving and dont worry about dings. Putters dont cost any more than any other disc.