“Boring” disc golf courses (particularly on coverage)

[Arisugawa]

My $.02 on this topic.

As a player, I completely understand the desire to play the same course throughout an event, or, at maximum, two courses. It minimizes the amount of practice one needs to do before sanctioned play which in turn minimizes the amount of travel time, and also allows one to get dialed into that specific course(s).

As a comparison to this, when I played AM Worlds a few years ago, my pool had a potential six courses I had to learn when the semi-finals and finals were included. Some of the days played during that event were two-rounds on separate courses. That's a major investment of time and resources to prepare; I arrived several days before competition to prepare and still ended up playing a few courses blind.

I get that touring players want to avoid this. I get that regional players may also want to avoid this, especially if they have to take off work in order to practice and play that many locations.

I also understand as an organizer, it's easier to manage few courses. It requires less overall staff, and staff and resources you might have to dedicate to several locations can be combined into one or two. It's also more convenient to only have to close down fewer public parks when this occurs, as that is often costly.

There are a lot of benefits to this for marquee events, and I understand this.

As a spectator, I dislike this practice immensely. For example, at the old Glass Blown Open, I liked watching the touring players tackle three courses before the organizers decided to make Country Club the centerpiece. It made every upload on YouTube interesting as I wasn't seeing the same players play the same course three-to-four times in largely the same conditions.

In my opinion, the same course again and again, with mostly the same players each round, is boring as a spectator watching post-produced coverage, no matter how challenging or technical the course may be.

Saying that, I will concede that live coverage provides in-the-moment drama that post-produced coverage does not, and that helps mitigate some of the repetition.

It's an odd contradiction of feelings, understanding what makes the tour and its players happy, compared to my own feelings as a spectator.

 

[BuiltTooLong]

I'd say the majority of viewers are not DD apologists and therefore understand those Emporia courses do not force the shot-shaping that other courses do. I don't think that Swenson is some magical course, but I can understand why people are praising it in comparison to courses like ECC.

 

[araytx]

I'd say the majority of viewers are not DD apologists and therefore understand those Emporia courses do not force the shot-shaping that other courses do. I don't think that Swenson is some magical course, but I can understand why people are praising it in comparison to courses like ECC.

But BTL, I DID NOT see the "forced shot-shaping" at Swenson that was different from Emporia Country Club. What I saw was the same shot over and over, backhand roller, backhand roller, straight low celling, straight low ceiling. If you call that "shot-shaping" it's because the repeated shot over and over isn't the backhand hyzer. But it's still the same over & over.

I'll give that hole #5 was only one that we saw lead card players throwing different shots off the tee (backhand roller, low ceiling sidearm, low ceiling backhand, and backhand spike hyzer. But even hole #6 after they all played it a couple rounds, everyone realized that FH spike hyzer over the top was the best throw and all four lead card participants did just that. After those two holes it was back to backhand roller, and low ceiling straight, rinse & repeat. Not much "shot-shaping" (at least not more then ECC) imho.

 

[BuiltTooLong]

A hyzer is the safest and easiest shot in disc golf. Throw it as hard as you can out to the right and the physics of flight take care of the rest. I don't see how that is shaping a shot as much as a roller or low-ceiling airshot, that requires very specific manipulations of angle and speed control.

The other thing you need to keep in mind is that the tour (in particular the early run) is already for chockfull of hyzerfest courses. So even the people that enjoy watching hyzer after hyzer after hyzer, even start to get bored with it. Whereas I can't think of too many courses that really compare to Swenson.

 

[araytx]

A hyzer is the safest and easiest shot in disc golf. Throw it as hard as you can out to the right and the physics of flight take care of the rest. I don't see how that is shaping a shot as much as a roller or low-ceiling airshot, that requires very specific manipulations of angle and speed control.

The other thing you need to keep in mind is that the tour (in particular the early run) is already for chockfull of hyzerfest courses. So even the people that enjoy watching hyzer after hyzer after hyzer, even start to get bored with it. Whereas I can't think of too many courses that really compare to Swenson.

OK. I hear what you're saying. You believe that because hyzer is the "easiest and safest shot in disc golf," seeing hyzer after hyzer is "boring." Whereas, in your opinion, at Swenson roller after roller or low ceiling straight after low ceiling straight isn't "boring" because those require a more precise throw. (BTW, I still don't see that as "shot-shaping" like throwing in the woods, which requires both that the bend/turn in either the hyzer or anhyzer be at a specific distance and a specific speed. Not sure how you see low ceiling straight throws require much speed control; they just simply require the correct disc selection.) But I get what you're saying, which is why I started the thread -- to hear different people's opinions. For you it's not the repetition of the same throws over and over; it's the fact that it's just not the hyzer shot over and over.

 

[autocrosscrx]

I didn't enjoy the coverage as much as some of the "boring" courses. I sometimes find long holes to be disorienting in coverage. Lots of angle changes with the cameras and you can't necessarily tell where they are on the hole.

For the sake of watching coverage, I like to see framed up shots where you can see the basket and/or an obvious landing area.

 

[Rastnav]

OK. I hear what you're saying. You believe that because hyzer is the "easiest and safest shot in disc golf," seeing hyzer after hyzer is "boring." Whereas, in your opinion, at Swenson roller after roller or low ceiling straight after low ceiling straight isn't "boring" because those require a more precise throw. (BTW, I still don't see that as "shot-shaping" like throwing in the woods, which requires both that the bend/turn in either the hyzer or anhyzer be at a specific distance and a specific speed. Not sure how you see low ceiling straight throws require much speed control; they just simply require the correct disc selection.) But I get what you're saying, which is why I started the thread -- to hear different people's opinions. For you it's not the repetition of the same throws over and over; it's the fact that it's just not the hyzer shot over and over.

I'm not sure where the disconnect is, but you are mischaracterizing the shot variety used on the course.

I looked at the first nine holes of the final round and the tee shots that were thrown:
#1 - Roller, Flex, Roller, Roller (1.5 lines)
#2 - High turnover, High sidearm, High turnover, Roller (1 line)
#3 - Low hyzer, Low hyzer, Low hyzer, Low hyzer (1 line)
#4 - Roller, Low hyzer flip, Low forehand flex, Low hyzer flip (3 lines)
#5 - Roller, Sidearm hyzer flip, High hyzer over the top, Low hyzer (4 lines)
#6 - High sidearm hyzer, High sidearm hyzer, High sidearm hyzer, High sidearm hyzer (1 line)
#7 - Low sidearm flex, Low sidearm flex, Low sidearm flex, Low sidearm flex (1 line)
#8 - Low flex, Low sidearm flex, Low flex, Low flex (3 lines)
#9 - Hyzer flip, Roller, Roller, Roller (1.5 lines)

Sure there are more rollers there than a typical tournament. But it's not roller after roller. Many of the holes had different lines being thrown, different gaps being hit. There was a huge variety of shots being played off the tee.

Of the 36 tee shots, there were 9 rollers thrown on 5 holes. There were only two holes where multiple people threw rollers. It's simply not the case that "roller after roller" were thrown. There were two holes that were roller holes, and even then Gossage and AB chose to not play the roller on #1 and #9 respectively. Ricky liked how the roller played, so he threw it on 3 more holes. The fact that Ricky could throw roller, but others could choose other plays, definitely argues against the idea that the course was requiring a single shot.

Sure these are big arms, but you still saw a wide variety of shots on other cards.

 

[rocthecourse]

After watching all the Jomez coverage I wouldn't call Swenson boring, but it was close. It was more fun to watch than a lot of the other ball golf courses. I do think that this course has room to improve with some design tweaks.


In my opinion Maple Hill is the most fun course to watch. I would like to see more courses like that on the pro tour.

 

[ThrowBot]

One thing about a high hyzer in the open: there isn't a lot to "look at" while the disc is flying. You may not see the ground or any close obstacles, and the disc doesn't change angles much in the air. Heck, without a radar gun and/or a stopwatch, a 350 foot throw doesn't look that different from a 500' throw on camera.

Lacking that context, I can see how some find a lot of open throws to be "boring." Skill and nuance are still there: reading the wind, playing ground angles, level of aggression and risk tolerance... BUT, some of those factors aren't always obvious on film. Good commentary helps.

 

[aredoubles]

Looks like Portland Open is coming up soon? What kind of course do they play there? The PNW biome has some pretty good potential for watchable DG.

It would usually be at Blue Lake, but unfortunately it's been moved to yet another golf course this year.

Fortunately the Masters Cup at DeLa is coming up soon. And I don't think(?) they're using the golf course for the final round anymore.

ECC has grown on me slightly over the years, especially the holes with tighter OB. Maybe they're still throwing hyzers, but at least there's drama in how much risk they choose to bite off each time.

Swenson seemed like max power rips every time, on a variety of shot types. I didn't see a lot of risk/reward thoughtfulness, except when there was water in play. I always prefer to have more OB on open courses, though it can admittedly be confusing on coverage.

 

[Tee1]

I love watching tournament coverage. But for me it doesn't get good until they get to the east coast. With the exception of DeLa it's just boring wide open hyzers. I personally can't stand playing wide open courses myself for this reason. Throwing the same shot off the tee over and over isn't disc golf. Idlewild, Maple Hill, Moraine, Hornets Nest and the like is what disc golf should be.

 

[ru4por]

I tried to watch some of the OTB. The course is just an above average park style course with some length. Honestly, IMO...the only thing making it above average is the water risks. Come on Idlewild!!

 

[Luckj]

When I watch play on open courses I just see a longer version of what I can do (poorly). They can throw a 500' hyzer and maybe I can only hit 300' but it looks the same. When I watch OTB they throw more shots that I can't usually throw. It's not my favorite course, just better than many other ball golf courses. Once we get to the true wooded courses, that's when I'm really engaged.

 

[Monocacy]

I thought OTB was a pretty fun watch. I enjoyed seeing players take different approaches on many of the holes.

But there were quite a few holes at OTB where getting farther off the fairway resulted in a more open shot. I prefer a true woods course where punishment is typically meted out in proportion to distance off the fairway.

I also prefer to watch (and play) courses where success depends on the patch the throw takes, not just where it lands.

 

[Dcinmd]

I love watching tournament coverage. But for me it doesn't get good until they get to the east coast. With the exception of DeLa it's just boring wide open hyzers. I personally can't stand playing wide open courses myself for this reason. Throwing the same shot off the tee over and over isn't disc golf. Idlewild, Maple Hill, Moraine, Hornets Nest and the like is what disc golf should be.

Milo???

As an east coaster I love watching Milo coverage.

 

[glassila]

In my opinion Maple Hill is the most fun course to watch. I would like to see more courses like that on the pro tour.

For sure, but that's a little like saying I would like to see more ball golf courses like Augusta National or Cypress Point. (there aren't any)

 

[nothinbuttree]

I prefer a true woods course where punishment is typically meted out in proportion to distance off the fairway.

On this course, and most open courses, being a couple degrees off on your throw merely results in your approach shot being 450' instead of 425', or your putt being from 35' instead of 20'. Yes, this can add a stroke, but...

Being 2 degrees off at a course like Idlewild can EASILY be a 2 stroke swing. Sometimes more. The precision required is of course the difference maker.

What I find enjoyable about Idlewild for instance is knowing that many of the shots the pros make are actually in my wheelhouse if I execute. I rarely do, but I've had a couple Follow Flight worthy shots there. With stress on couple.

But I've never thrown 500' in an open field, or a 490' low ceiling forehand flex (that might have been the best throw I have ever seen BTW), or a 450' up and over the treeline forehand hyzer. And feel free to take 100' off each of these numbers and the statement is still true.

So perhaps relatability (is that a word) is what makes certain courses more enjoyable to watch, for me anyway. I do like to marvel at the impressive shots Eagle and others make for sure. But if that is every drive, it just doesn't mean as much.

 

[BrotherDave]

I don't like the roller fest because with rollers I have a hard time keeping a frame of reference with where they are in relation to the hole. Catch cam just never seems in good position to capture them.

 

[Ryan P.]

I question the Ryan P. who said there was "a variety of shots" at Swenson. I didn't see "variety. " Tell how it was "variety" vs "shots we don't see very often" happening over and over.

You are right that I think there was a variety of shots at Swenson, but that wasn't the point of my post; my point was that this course showed a fair amount of shots/decisions that we don't normally see on tour, and that's why I liked it. It wasn't "Do I FH hyzer or BH hyzer to the unguarded basket."

To be more specific, I watch DG coverage partially because of the drama/seeing someone win, partially because I want to learn how to play better and watching the pros helps, and mainly because I want to understand course design. Seeing that Leonard Muise was given this land and built a fairly interesting DG course on it was better to watch than many other courses, partially because I've never seen it before, but partially because it created interesting decisions that will should play and course design.

For example, hole 15 (the one over water that Calvin aced) was a 340 water shot that seemed fairly simple, and it was, with around 40% of the field getting the 2 each day. However, there were two main approaches to it, each with their own merits and demerits. Seeing what pros would take what approach teaches you what they think about the strengths and weaknesses of their own game. Eagle and Ricky both played an overstable fairway driver on a flex line, presumably to avoid skip, but they had to play it on a low flex line because of the tree near the tee. It's interesting that probably the best two FH players in the world chose to throw BH on a hole that many others were throwing a FH on. What was the outcome? They had a putt for 2 five out of six times. So what did Eagle/Ricky see that others didn't? I don't think they cared about landing safely, because they could throw a FH hyzer 30'-40' right of the basket with almost no risk. Based on their games I fully expected a FH on this hole from both of them. My guess is they thought "I can control missing the tree 20 feet from me easier than I can control missing that palm tree 330' away, so I'm going to control my destiny." That's simply a guess, but for me, it's interesting to think about possibilities like this when I watch.

 

[BrotherDave]

I thought OTB was a pretty fun watch. I enjoyed seeing players take different approaches on many of the holes.

I've seen this sentiment a few times and while I agree, I wonder how much of this is actually caused by the design or simply just lack of familiarity with the course since it's new to the tour. As this course is used in the future, will we see more uniformity of approaches on the holes as the players learn the course better? I think to a large degree the answer is yes. It seemed like a lot of players were already emulating each other's strategies of going very wide off many fairways because there was no punishment for doing so and the approach was just as fruitful.