2014 United States Disc Golf Championship

[BgWvDave]

Whenever I am involved in a call, as the player who's lie is affected, I try to let the other members of the group come to a decision without to much of my input. I just feel like I am obviously biased and unless I strongly disagree do not need to sway the other players towards making an unfair call. I obviously cannot speak for Paul but that's what it appeared he was doing to me, just letting it sort itself out.

I won't disagree with you but how can you sway a rule? the rule is the rule. when as a player I am involved in a call. lets say a close to out of bounds call I do exactly as you said and let the group come and look at it, I weigh my opinion and then ask their thoughts. I also would have been cool with the entire group coming over and us discussing it together as well.

again I m not trying to point fingers or deflect responsibility. just pointing out what did and could have happen. again I would have been fine having that discussion with all players in the group and officials together.

 

[plastic_fondler]

At usdgc, they give you a caddy vest if you indicate you will need one. Interesting that this isn't required. I'd also like to see the lead card discs checked for weight at the end of the round.

 

[bhadella]

At usdgc, they give you a caddy vest if you indicate you will need one. Interesting that this isn't required. I'd also like to see the lead card discs checked for weight at the end of the round.

What good does that do at the end of the round? If you were to actually check them (which nobody, especially the manufacturers want you to do), it should be before they are used.

 

[DatRedDude]

you have plenty of excuses for being lazy. i would hate to employ you as a worker

I am guessing you are on the cover of men's health. I am 38 years old. a stool saves my back(put my bag on it) and my knees(sitting in between shots as it is painful how long a tourney round takes). Why does a stool bother you so much?

 

[biscoe]

In theory that logic is perfect, the problem is there's so many people that qualify throughout the year at NT's/Majors at different courses because all of the top level players already have invites. That's why I said that hypothetically giving the FPO winner (and I'm saying winner only vs top 10 for MPO or whatever the exact specs are) of majors an invite. If somebody places 25th and the 24 people in front of him are already qualified and he gets in, is that really better competition than say, Paige Pierce?

or am I totally misunderstanding the qualification process?

If Paige shoots better than the player who finished 25th she gets in. As long as they play the same courses she is directly competing for the spot via score.

 

[tbird888]

What good does that do at the end of the round? If you were to actually check them (which nobody, especially the manufacturers want you to do), it should be before they are used.

And why check just the lead card?

 

[WhiteyBear]

What good does that do at the end of the round? If you were to actually check them (which nobody, especially the manufacturers want you to do), it should be before they are used.

Unless you are weighing them right before they tee off, anyone can "make a trip to the car" for the super special illegal disc

And why check just the lead card?

Check everything then...tada!

 

[Dave242]

I also would have been cool with the entire group coming over and us discussing it together as well.

again I m not trying to point fingers or deflect responsibility. just pointing out what did and could have happen. again I would have been fine having that discussion with all players in the group and officials together.

According the Competition Manual having the entire group come over to discuss seems pointless and/or very weak: 1.11.D Non-playing certified officials appointed by the Tournament Director may actively make rulings during any tournament play that they witness. ... The official's ruling supersedes the ruling of the group, but an appeal may be made to the Tournament Director.

Talking about "weak", would a suitable outcome have been to have Paul take a provisional throw with the chair moved and get an official ruling later on?

I don't know the role of the other official who I saw in the video, but knowing him quite well, I have a hard time seeing him being a resource to get to an accurate decision in a speedy manner.

From my perspective,this is an easy one. Have the spotter remove the chair:
803.01 Obstacles and Relief A.....A player is allowed to request that other people remove themselves and/or their belongings from the player's stance or line of play. There is no other rule in the current rulebook that contradicts this.....just some memories of past rulebooks that do.

 

[bikinjack]

why do the spotters need a chair? why do throwers need a stool?

pathetic lazy. its already a low physical activity sport. make it lazier? might as well assign all players a segue so they can get around the course. i bet you could even modify the segues so that it can hold your bag because its too hard to carry it on your back.

Someone very wise once told me, "Never stand when you can sit, and never sit when you can lie down."

I have spotted at the USDGC. I was there this year spotting the tee shot on hole 5 on Thursday. I put my Camp Time Roll-A-Stool underneath a tree in an OB area that would be damned near impossible for a player's shot to be near. About every fifth or sixth card, I would go over and take a seat in the shade, and maybe get a drink of water while waiting for the next card to throw.

Have you ever spent a week volunteering at something like the USDGC? If not, please refrain from calling me or any of the other volunteers that make this event possible lazy.

 

[Mr. Anderson]

It doesn't to my knowledge. But I do agree that I do remember something being printed in an older version. when addressing a rules situation as obscure (at least to me) as this I have to treat it as a problem solving task. you spit ball at first and then widdle it down to the key components. when trying to establish if the chair had been there all day it got me at least to casual obstacles/what is considered part of the course. which as you quoted was 803.01. the next logical step would be to look up that rule and apply it as it is needed. Unfortunately we did not have the time I needed to get there. I am a bit slow in this respect I will admit. More time even 1 minute would have been really really nice to have in that situation.

Mr. Anderson. the USDGC Official on the phone was on the phone with the PDGA Official who was 1 hole away. he was prepping Mike (the PDGA Official) so that when he arrived he was abreast of the situation. Mike rolled up just as Paul was releasing his second shot. Nothing really funny about multitasking to help get the right call as quickly as possible.

Comparable Scenario: I am a park user riding my bike before a disc golf tournament begins. I set it down my bike in a fairway to go look at some flowers. The tournament begins and all 4 competitors throw their disc under the wheels of the bike that has been laid down. They do not know the rules and proceed to awkwardly throw with a supporting point underneath said tires. I am now asked by all the competitors and the flustered TD to leave my bike there all day to make it "fair" for all competitors. I believe this scenario and the USDGC scenario were equally ridiculous.

 

[Dave242]

My question is where specifically in the rulebook does it say anything about the timing for when obstacles are on the course? I think an older rulebook may have said something. But if you look at the Obstacles and Relief section 803.01, there's no wording there other than "not moving any obstacles with the exception of those denoted" regardless of how long they might have been there.

I pulled up a 2007 Rule Book and found this:
803.05 Obstacles and Relief
B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole:
..... A player may move obstacles between the lie and
the hole that became a factor during
the round, such as spectators, players'
equipment, open gates, or branches that
fell during the round. Where it is not
known if an obstacle has become a factor
during a round, it shall not be moved. It
is legal for a player's throwing motion to
make incidental movement of an obstacle.

This is no longer in the rules or Q&A as far as I can tell.

 

[Dana]

At usdgc, they give you a caddy vest if you indicate you will need one. Interesting that this isn't required. I'd also like to see the lead card discs checked for weight at the end of the round.

You may or may not realize that discs gain and lose weight on a regular basis, especially if it is hot and humid. Discs pick up and lose grams all of the time. It is (and would be) nearly impossible to fairly police and enforce, unless you go Japan Open style and weight and specially stamp every disc before the event.

And how would it be fair that ONLY the lead card have their discs checked?

 

[RKelly]

The biggest problem with the chair situation is that no one had a Rule BOOK! Not the officials, not the player, not the player's caddie. Why was it ever necessary to call a PDGA official?
And yes, McBeth didn't wait for the final, official ruling. And bigwave, you seem like a nice guy, but admit it, you( and the other officials) made a mistake. Get over it, admit it and let's all move on.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Related thread drift - Tournament staffer pounds a temporary "No Parking" sign in the ground before the round. The first group comes through and a player's disc hits the sign kicking it OB. The TD discovers the sign was put in the wrong place after a few more groups have passed through. Is it okay to remove the sign or move it to another place on the hole?

A ground bee nest is discovered during the round close to an OB line. Is it okay to pound a warning sign in the ground or even insert a few orange warning flags surrounding the area during the round?

 

[bikinjack]

Related thread drift - Tournament staffer pounds a temporary "No Parking" sign in the ground before the round. The first group comes through and a player's disc hits the sign kicking it OB. The TD discovers the sign was put in the wrong place after a few more groups have passed through. Is it okay to remove the sign or move it to another place on the hole? It should not be moved until the round is over.

A ground bee nest is discovered during the round close to an OB line. Is it okay to pound a warning sign in the ground or even insert a few orange warning flags surrounding the area during the round? No sign should be placed, but a can of spray paint would potentially be a good solution

How's that sound?

 

[Steve West]

I think we're burying the lead here. Didn't anyone else notice Chuck used this phrase:

"My question is where specifically in the rulebook does it say anything about…"

No logical extensions, no talk of rules that almost-were, no overriding principles, nothing.

 

[JC17393]

I pulled up a 2007 Rule Book and found this:
803.05 Obstacles and Relief
B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole:
..... A player may move obstacles between the lie and
the hole that became a factor during
the round, such as spectators, players'
equipment, open gates, or branches that
fell during the round. Where it is not
known if an obstacle has become a factor
during a round, it shall not be moved. It
is legal for a player's throwing motion to
make incidental movement of an obstacle.

This is no longer in the rules or Q&A as far as I can tell.

It isn't. For good reason too, because how could anyone possibly determine if a branch fell during the round or not? Such a silly stipulation to have in the rules, and clearly it was this by-gone rule that had people so confused regarding "chairgate".

It was a very unusual situation, but the rules applicable aren't obscure. I'm frankly surprised that a player of McBeth's caliber and experience was not only unsure of how to proceed, but didn't have the wherewithal to pull out a rule book and be sure of himself on his own. This not withstanding that there was a marshall right there with a rule book who could have been consulted.

I think it underscores how important knowledge of the rules can be.

 

[juju]

Related thread drift - Tournament staffer pounds a temporary "No Parking" sign in the ground before the round. The first group comes through and a player's disc hits the sign kicking it OB. The TD discovers the sign was put in the wrong place after a few more groups have passed through. Is it okay to remove the sign or move it to another place on the hole?

A ground bee nest is discovered during the round close to an OB line. Is it okay to pound a warning sign in the ground or even insert a few orange warning flags surrounding the area during the round?

Is the sign needed in another area? Then yes.

Are the bees angry? Then yes.

 

[BgWvDave]

The biggest problem with the chair situation is that no one had a Rule BOOK! Not the officials, not the player, not the player's caddie. Why was it ever necessary to call a PDGA official?
And yes, McBeth didn't wait for the final, official ruling. And bigwave, you seem like a nice guy, but admit it, you( and the other officials) made a mistake. Get over it, admit it and let's all move on.

Rob,
sorry bud but you are dead wrong here. First no mistake was made as no call was given. this has been discussed at nausea. Second I have admitted my short comings multiple times. Lastly and most importantly I will repeat AGAIN that it was not the Marshalls place to make a call. Our capacity was to ASSIST players in making the call. This is plain and simple and until people like you realize it I will continue to post the truth.

If you had said no one pulled out a rule book then yes you would be correct. But I had a rule book and Burro had a rule book. Again time did not allow us to get to the rule book. 1 min. and 30 seconds approx. was the time allowed before Paul threw his shot.

 

[Steve West]

Related thread drift - Tournament staffer pounds a temporary "No Parking" sign in the ground before the round. The first group comes through and a player's disc hits the sign kicking it OB. The TD discovers the sign was put in the wrong place after a few more groups have passed through. Is it okay to remove the sign or move it to another place on the hole?

A ground bee nest is discovered during the round close to an OB line. Is it okay to pound a warning sign in the ground or even insert a few orange warning flags surrounding the area during the round?

Are there any rules about what the TD can or can't move?

Or, is this a question of best practices?